Tube Equipment: Gimmick?

The attraction of tubes is the "presence" of the music, at least to me. Many ss guys will demur. The best tube and ss designs probably have more in common than differences, at least I keep reading it although I haven't realized it first hand yet, maybe the Boulder? Talking to an Engineer will resolve nothing, just check the archives here, a very popular topic it is.

You will get a straight answer by listening for yourself and come to your own conclusions, it really is the only way. Please keep us posted on your conclusions, I expect from the title of your thread, the controversy will continue.

"I have seen the "guts" of tube equipment. It does not look extremely complicated or intricate (especially amplifiers). However, solid state equipment seems to be much more complicated. For instance, the FPB-300 has numerous massive circuit-boards, containing motorola processor chips. Why is highend tube gear priced comparably to solid state gear, if there isn't the research and development or the "stuff" going into it?"

Jiwitn, have you ever seen the inside of a Berning Zh270? At a strapping 10 lbs it ain't gonna meet your criteria of "massive circuit boards", I mean how many layers of circuit boards can you fit into a 12x15x4.5 high tube amp that also has 10 tubes. I realize I have become obnoxious in always talking about the Berning but frankly I believe people should be aware of how special it really is. I will continue to do so because in its price range I haven't heard a better performer. I like it cause it involves me in the music, not ONE area where it isn't totally involving. This dynamic little demon will probably lay to rest your impressions concerning tube amps. Since you seem to be into "complicated". I doubt there are too many amps tube or ss that might be considered more complicated than this one. Radical technology, no iron core transformer but a high frequency impedance converter. It also has a high speed switching power supply specially designed for the amp. Not some off the shelf power supply. This amp is as quiet as a dead church mouse but for the atoms slamming against each other inside the tubes which you can clearly hear through the speakers when you put your ear right up to the driver, but you won't hear a transformer, power or output except for the pre-amp if it has one. You get the picture.

Ok Jitwn, it doesn't have 600 watts like your beloved Krell, remember, not everyone requires 600 watts. What it does do is provide FULL POWER within it frequency range depending on the feedback used. Full power to 2hz with no more than 1% distortion. It operates in a very linear manner like tubes do contrary to popular belief. The problem with tube gear is that damn transformer. In some of the newer more exclusive gear it has been improved dramatically from the good ole days. The point is that tube technology is not stagnant. The zh is one example and these other guys Lamm, BAT, ARC, Conrad Johnson etc aren't exactly resting on their past laurels either. I would love you to hear this one, you might be pleasantly surprised in how much power this little beast can project without running out of gas. My only beef is that unwieldy cables tend to manhandle the amp and it doesn't want to stay put, it can be a pain in the ass. I think the manufacturer should consider beefing it up with some lead weights or something so people feel they're getting their money's worth and they can use python sized cable it they want. Price per pound value is not too good on this one, after all we're talking about prime fillet not sirloin.

I'll lay it to rest for now but suggest you check out this link for more information http://www.davidberning.com/zh270.htm

Hey something just dawned on me, maybe some of the tube guys have been too long away from ss and maybe same for the ss guys.Come to think of it I haven't listened to a ss amp since that digital amp a few months back and before that at an audio show. Nothing at the show grabbed my attention like the better tube-based systems but you know how show conditions aren't always ideal for such comparisons.

Slappy I'll say this in concurrence with Jim and TWL, not all tube amps sound the same. I sure don't like rolled off highs and that bloated bass and an overly euphonic midrange that renders a sameness to the music, it gets kind of boring listening to music where there is particular “character” to the presentation. I am not knocking that sound to those that like it I just don't include myself in that group. I have owned a few of them, still have a pair of MC-60's that used to sound more in that direction before I did some mods that eliminated much of that character, got rid of the tube rectifiers and put a SS one in. It made a definite improvement in the bass but it is still a bit too tubey in the mids and the top end is not extended enough for my tastes yet sounds a lot less tubey than some of the less expensive tube designs I’ve heard over the past few years. Try to seek out a tube amp based system that doesn't use an output transformer. The Joule is a real thing of beauty, it has that sense of realness that you hear live instruments produce without the bloat and mushiness; you get the harmonics of instruments in their full glory. It takes plenty of speed for an amp to recreate this sense of realism so don’t for a minute think they can’t. As TWL notes, it is more often the fault of the transformer than any other factor in this area of tube amp performance. This harmonic realism is the one major area that SS has a tough time competing with tubes in my experience. I don't know why this is so and it doesn't seem as apparent to some listeners as others. Some that like ss are more impressed with the dynamics that a big ss amp presents. Some insist that harmonically, ss sounds better or at least the equal of a great tube amp like the Joule, I haven’t heard one come close. A comparably powered tube amp with some umph in the bottom would necessarily be a quite imposing beast to be sure but some of them can definitely go head to head with ss maybe missing a bit of that hallmark slam that Jiwitn’s Krell's definitely have.

So the bottom line to this discussion from my perspective is there are tube amps and there are tube amps, there are ss amps and I suppose there are better ss amps, the best of the current crop I haven’t listened to in a suitable well set-up system. The best of each may be closer to each other than we realize taking into consideration the speakers they will be used with and the rest of the system. The problem for me is I haven’t heard a SS amp that offers that harmonic realism that is so important to me. Maybe its out there awaiting my discovery and amazement at finding it. Or maybe no ss device can replicate what tubes do so very well which may not be important to other listeners. I try to make sense out of this ongoing debate but there is no sense to it. It seems to me, all said and done that we each hear differently and have different priorities as to what is most important in the reproduction of music otherwise things would be a lot more obvious than they are and this thread wouldn’t continue to reappear in different guises as often as it does.

Per Marco request - As a base of reference for my above comments I have listened extensively to ss amps the likes of Krell, Threshold (owned one of those), Mark Levinson, Parasound, Adcom, ARC, Forte, and Bryston. I have listened over the years to products from Pass, Gryphon, McCormack, Halcro (after 10 minutes of this system I started getting bored, what's the fuss about? Set-up I suppose) and several others I can't remember.

My favorite ss amps to date were the Threshold SA-1's which I loved and the Pass Aelph. The rest of the systems with the above components didn't move me at all except an Apogee/Adcom system from years back. Great tube systems always take hold of the emotions conveyed by music in a way that eludes SS in my experience. To me the issue isn't tubes versus SS but musical involvement. Maybe some day a SS amp will have my name on it. If it comes around, I'll buy it.

Hey Slappy before you feel that you are about to be sentenced to the end of your natural life by a perpetual playing of "Pachebel's Canon" through a SET amp on a pair of high efficiency horn speakers by the SET sect of the Southern Branch of the Tube Lovers "audiophile crusaders", I would like to remind you of the following post which was in part reason for my LAST post which was in part directed for your benefit.

10-06-03: Slappy
"Its probably a lack of knowledge about tube gear.

When im able to get a good 2ch system ive been debating on going with Conrad Johnson Tube equipment, or going cheaper and buying a Krell 300i, Running some GMA Europas with either.

Im leaning more twards the Krell because i like/trust/know SS gear. I dont PREFER it because i never heard tube gear, but tubes gear looks like fun. Albeit, more maintenance is required, but im sure there is a payoff.

If i do end up getting some tube gear, i might very well opt to buy some bottlehead kits and do it that way. It would be a good learning experience and would get me into tube gear without going broke.
Ya know something, it never occurred to me that ss guys could be as passionate as tube guys."

Now Slappy, I'm gonna say it, I didn't realize you were so passionate about SS gear. If I had known this and hadn't been so ignorant in assuming that you hadn't heard the best that tubes have to offer since the above post of yours, I sure wouldn't have gone through the effort of sharing with you some of the things I really love about great tube gear and how truly great and involving it can be. Last thing in the world I'd ever want to do would be to offend or even worse convert someone so committed. Sharing a great experience to me is as enjoyable as the experience itself. Peace to you too dude.