Tri-Planar Vll "SE Upgrade"

Raul, do you know what a security clearance is?
In a case like this it means that the person or company with the clearance cannot divulge information by law.

I have the feeling that when raul is talking about 'lies' he is talking about me; just for the record nothing I've posted on this or other threads about tone arm or LP performance is untrue.

Generally, if I don't know the answer I stay silent. If raul is not talking about me, then whoever he is talking about sounds like he's spot on.

@atmasphere the two discs you cut, are those available? IF I never hear the cannons again it will be toooooooooo soon....

Some of the LPs we cut are on the Nero's Neptune label. The LP I use for reference was not mastered by us- that was done at the Mastering Lab by Mike Reese and Doug Sax. But I have the master tapes- I know what that LP is supposed to sound like. Its called Canto General; a friend of mine came across several sealed copies recently- PM me if interested.

that’s untrue for say the least. Resonance frequency between cartridge y tonearm is like any other parameter: something to take in count but cartridge/arm combination out of 8hz-12hz or even 7hz normally has no problems of mistrcking and certainly with " moderate modulation " never happens.

Tracking abilities depends more on the self cartridge abilities than the tonearm in which is mounted.

This statement is false. Its well known that the resonance target of 7-12Hz plays an enormous role in how well a cartridge will behave in an arm, especially if heavy modulation, warp or non-concentric grooves are involved.  Further, the idea that the arm plays no role in the tracking abilities of the cartridge is ludicrous and is easy to demonstrate :)

 I have heard medium mass arms mistrack many records and then here the same records on a mission mechanic arm and they track perfectly.

@tzh21y  The issue here is something called 'effective mass' which is the combination of the mass of the arm and cartridge, and how that interacts with the mechanical resonance, which occurs when the effective mass interacts with the compliance of the cartridge.

Regardless of the quality of the arm and cartridge, if the mechanical resonance does not fall within the window of about 7-12Hz, the arm and cartridge combination will mistrack and you may experience breakup even with moderate modulation in the LP grooves.

IOW, 'medium mass arms' has nothing to do with it. What your post suggests is that the medium mass arms you heard were not set up properly.

The Triplanar allows some adjustment of the effective mass, and so it can accommodate a fairly wide range of cartridge compliance.

Any arm can do 70 microns or even 80. Its no big deal and Triplanars can do it too no worries.

I don't need a test LP; I can perform tests using my lathe.

The technical story is easy to understand. I'm sure most that have read this far followed it with ease.

The Triplanar is the most adjustable arm in the world. If a person can get it to track at 2 mils but not above that, something is wrong, but given that it can track at 2 mils, probably the setup and not the arm.

Folks, just so you know, 50 microns is about the same as 2 mils (which is how groove deflection is measured in the US if you have American-made LP mastering gear). Many systems use microns these days as many cutter systems are European-made.

2 mils (ever so slightly over 50microns, which is ~1.97 mils) is standard level for 0VU at 1KHz on our lathe and cutter system (Scully lathe with Westerx 3D cutter head, Westerex 1700 mastering electronics with custom tube amplifiers for the cutter head). **3db more is 4 mils.** This is because 3 db more requires double the amplifier power to cut the groove. That would work out to 100 microns.

Its really obvious why no-one other than Nandric has reported any tracking issues in this regard. Its because any arm made can track 2 mils (The older Technics 1200 machine we often use to test our cuts has no troubles doing it; we use this machine with an inexpensive cartridge to make sure that a groove we cut can be played by a common turntable).  His magical number of 70 microns is about 1.43 db over 0VU on our system. That's not a hard value for most arms (including the humble Technics) to do as well. 

The Triplanar has no worries doing this- we've brought lathe cuts back to the shop and played them on our system no worries. The big danger in cutting louder tracks is usually overcutting the groove, not the tracking of the playback at this level, so long as you don't have the usual dangers such as out-of-phase bass or the like (out-of-phase bass can knock the stylus out of the groove).  Since the groove noise tends to show up in the pressing process and even then is not a great concern if the mastering engineer did his job right, there really is very little call for going over 0VU when making the cut.

So even though 70 microns is a very slight increase in volume, its also a really rare thing to encounter (the exception being 12" singles on 45rpm and the like). This is because going over 0VU means that the engineer is likely going to have to take some time to set up the groove cut so no playback problems are encountered. For the most part, mastering houses like to avoid that sort of thing because the typical cost of mastering is about $400/hour.  So a mastering operation will take pains to avoid higher levels like that, even though most arms can play it no worries.

So the conclusion is one or more of the following:
1) the Triplanar to which Nandric refers was/is damaged
2) he does not know how to set up an arm
3) the story is made up.

IOW, the math just does not support his apparently ridiculous story.

@nandric , the above and this:

Interesting

finding for someone who does not own a single test record and

also does not believe in test records.

Shows that you are an adept at the Stawman. I never said I don't believe in test records, I just said I don't have any.

Generating a false argument and then knocking it down is the very definition of the Strawman.

Since you have engaged in logical fallacy, by definition your arguments are false.

I don't know why you chose to troll this thread. My theory is you want to add status to your clearly outdated and outclassed older tonearms. That's just a theory though. I don't propose to have any idea what's really in your head, but its very clear that you don't have experience with a Triplanar, at least not one that is undamaged.

@nandric ,

I have several LPs which I recorded (the first being Canto General, music of Mikas Theodorakis). For that recording we got the biggest bass drum in the state, which was a good six feet across. I have the master tapes and I know how this recording is supposed to sound. The LP was cut without any processing whatsoever other than RIAA pre-emphasis.

This LP does quite well as a test record for me as it has very wide dynamic range and very deep bass. Most arms can't play it right; the Triplanar is one of the very few that can. It also easily tracks the Church Windows LP which has groove modulation well in excess of 60 microns.

As others have mentioned, the arm tracks everything you throw at it. In fact this arm taught me that the ability of the arm to track the cartridge correctly is far more important than the choice of cartridge. It is the most adjustable arm in the world and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made.

Regarding not believing you:
Being quite familiar with Occam's Razor, right now its suggesting to me that there is a simple explanation here:  despite claims of many arms and cartridges, you may not know how to set up a tone arm and/or you don't have and never had a Triplanar.

I don't belive that I need lessons about the use of

quantifiers. I addressed the participants in this thread so my quantor

''nobody'' does not include the whole universe but only members who

reacted to my post. You are also included because you also deed

not answer my question. My question was if the Triplanar can track

more then 50 microns on tracking ability test records. Among your

4000 records there should be some of those?

We're using English on this website, so despite your belief it was something that needed correction. Deal.

I don't own any test records. Not a one. I listen to music, not audiophile records. Just music.

Well nobody (in this thread atmasphere) seem to think that those

tracking ability test are of any importance.

This statement is outright false and I find it a bit offensive as I suspect others here do as well.

What's really going on in my case is I just don't believe you. I am happy though to obtain the LP but its not available in the US.

To my surprise nobody

try the same experiment but invented all kinds of answers which

are irrelevant for my question.

@nandric, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ’Nobody’ is incorrectly used in your posts so far. ’Some people’ might be a lot more accurate as I suspect that not everyone who has a Triplanar has seen this thread!!

I don’t have any of the LPs to which you refer (having heard the 1812 far too many times I hope to never hear it again in my lifetime; I count myself amongst the privileged fortunate who have not heard the 1812 for over 2 decades and I’m going for a third). But I do have an LP mastering lathe and so far no matter the test tones we’ve cut the Triplanar has played them all without complaint and for that matter, every LP I’ve had except for one:

That LP has a lot of bass on it and is a recent pop recording. Now I’m used to playing pop recordings with quite a lot of bass, so I was upset that this particular LP was having troubles (although the usual signs of mistracking were not showing up). So I took it to the studio and studied the grooves under the microscope. Its quite obvious that the LP was overcut. That can cause distortion so I have discounted this particular title as not being a contender.

The way you’re making it sound is that there are possibly two titles in the world that the Triplanar won’t play. I have only about 8000 titles in my library so its highly likely that I won’t run into these titles (and if one of those involves the 1812 then we’re down to one) given how much music there is. These LPs don’t seem to be in the US for starters- so I would not jump to the conclusions as you appear to be doing! Do you know of a source for this test LP? I’d be happy to give it a shot as long its not cannon shots :) !