I'm not unhappy with my TP though I've always felt the Discovery wiring was a weakness. Tried some of their "better" cables in the past and didn't care for them.
I hate the idea of making two changes at the same time, wire and wand, so I've decided to just go with the silver wiring harness from cartridge clips to XLR's going into my Atma-Sphere MP-1's phono.
It would be interesting to go with a short pigtail and be able to experiment with other cables but I talked to Tri and he assured me that he's using good quality silver wire so why have another break in the chain.
Down the road, if I read several posts extolling the virtues of the new carbon fiber arm tube on the 10", then I might go for it.
I'm guessing there are a few of us wondering about the "upgrades" so once I get my arm back and have a chance to listen, I'll report back with my "opinion".
My cartridge is an XV-1s. These days it may not be as trendy as the newest, latest and greatest but it mates well with the TP and it gets the job done.
Speaking about Triplanar weakness. My Triplanar VII ''refused'' to
track anything above 50 microns on my test record. Even carts which
easilly got 70 microns right (aka ''pure'') on my FR-64s were not
able to track more than 50 microns with the Triplanar. I know that
''induction'' from one experiment does not count as proof but
anybody can repeat the same experiment and see for himself.
Dear cleeds, I bought the Triplanar VII new in the USA and paid
500 euro import duty. As I understand 50 microns (horizontal and
vertical) should be sufficient for a ''normal record''. BTW I own
some MC's with pretty low compliance which are also not able
to track more than 50 micron on tracking ability test records.
But I was surprised that my FR-64 which is at least twice as heavy
can track 70-80 microns . However nobody made the same
experiment in order to check my finding but persist in the well
known ''denial strategy''. I stated that my sample was not able
to track more than 50 micron with any of my MC carts and asked
others to try the same experiment . Anybody who owns test
records with tracking capabilty test can do this in 5 minutes time.
If the results are different than my then I will know that my
sample is possible defective.
Addition, I assume that Raul owns just one test record which
contains those Tchaikovsky's cannon shots ? If an cart/tonearm
combo is not able to track them then such combo's are dismissed.
But to track those cannons at least 70 microns tracking capability
is needed. That is why he recommends high compliance carts
of even the MC ''nature''. Say the Ortofon MC 2000 which can
do this jobe but is, alas, impossible to use because of its output:
Your arm sounds defective. If you purchased it new, it's surely covered under warranty. It should be returned to your dealer for service or replacement.
Elinor, ''any record'' should imply also ''test records''. But test
records with ''tracking capability'' are made in order to show by
which value (aka ''microns'') the arm /cart combo will start to
mistrack. It is very curious that nobody is willing to try the same
experiment which is very simple to repeat. Fear?
Dear cleeds, ''Your arm sounds defective'' is a curious statement. I am not aware that you listened to my arm. But if you performed tracking ability test and your Triplanar got more than 50 microns ''pure'' I will need to agree that my Triplanar is defective.
What you've described sounds like your arm is defective, although it could also be a setup problem. I don't know why you think that's "curious." Why you should think that the way my pickup arm performs has any relationship to whether your arm is defective or not is quite curious, however.
I don't own a Triplanar, btw. But you should be getting better performance from your arm than what you relate here. It's apparently under warranty - why not take advantage of that??
Dear cleeds, This is called ''testimonium paupertatis'' in old
good latin. You don't even own the Triplanar but you pretend
to know better than those who know what they are talking about.
I assume that this is the influence of the Mexican. In empirical
science no proof would be even considered without provision of
repertory and controlable experiments. So I am still waiting for
someone who checked my statement not by speculation but by
testing his Triplanar with tracking ability test. What is curious is
the fact that I need to wait so long.
This is called ''testimonium paupertatis'' in old good latin. You don't even own the Triplanar but you pretend to know better than those who know what they are talking about. I assume that this is the influence of the Mexican. In empirical science no proof would be even considered without provision of repertory and controlable experiments. So I am still waiting for someone who checked my statement not by speculation but by testing his Triplanar with tracking ability test. What is curious isthe fact that I need to wait so long.
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. I have extensive experience with the Triplanar arm. That I don't happen to personally own one now is irrelevant.
I am not sure what you mean about "influence of the Mexican." Nationality has nothing to do with this. It sounds like you suffer prejudice.
Nandric, you're the one with the problem pickup arm. What's curious is that you prefer to complain about it, rather than to return it to the dealer or manufacturer for evaluation. Apparently, your preference is to suffer noisily. So I guess you're a very happy guy.
Nandric I have no fear of trying a test record but honestly if I have a tonearm that tracks every record I own without issue with the exception of records I know to be imperfect so why would I need to resort to a test? This seems to be just another whacky thread which has driven me away from Audiogon forums. Signing off.
Elinor, By each cart manufacturer provide specifications among
which recommended VTF and tracking ability expressed in microns.
Say my Benz LP S claims 80 microns by 2g. My Ortofon Windfeld
even 100 microns with 2,6g. On the other side my Ikeda 9 c does
not claim anything but can't track more than 50 microns. As I wrote
in my previous post 50 microns is sufficient for ''normal records''.
But there are records which are more demanding like those
Tchaikovski's cannon shots. Raul use this record to judge carts.
The most cart/tonearms combos will skip the third shot. The same
will happen with cart/tonearm combos by 60 microns if the combo
is not able to track more than 50 microns. I see that nobody care
to test his own combos but trust their hearing or intuition. Well I
check all my (new) carts with my test records first. That is before
listening to them. I was not able to confirm Windfeld but well
LPS . To be more specific I never got 100 microns ''pure'' nor
90 microns but well 80 microns with 2 g by LPS. I do those
tests with my FR-64 because this arm has removable headshell
such that changing carts is much more easy then by Triplanar
and other tonearms with fast headshells. So I was very much
surprised when my Triplanar ''refused'' to track 60 microns and
skipped the groove. This btw does no imply that the arm is defective
because there are many low complience carts wich can't track
more than 50 microns. But if whatever cart can track, say 70
microns , with my FR-64 but the same cart is not able to track
70 microns on my Triplanar I was curious to know why. That is
why I posted my specific question. To my surprise nobody
try the same experiment but invented all kinds of answers which
are irrelevant for my question.
@nandric, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ’Nobody’ is incorrectly used in your posts so far. ’Some people’ might be a lot more accurate as I suspect that not everyone who has a Triplanar has seen this thread!!
I don’t have any of the LPs to which you refer (having heard the 1812 far too many times I hope to never hear it again in my lifetime; I count myself amongst the privileged fortunate who have not heard the 1812 for over 2 decades and I’m going for a third). But I do have an LP mastering lathe and so far no matter the test tones we’ve cut the Triplanar has played them all without complaint and for that matter, every LP I’ve had except for one:
That LP has a lot of bass on it and is a recent pop recording. Now I’m used to playing pop recordings with quite a lot of bass, so I was upset that this particular LP was having troubles (although the usual signs of mistracking were not showing up). So I took it to the studio and studied the grooves under the microscope. Its quite obvious that the LP was overcut. That can cause distortion so I have discounted this particular title as not being a contender.
The way you’re making it sound is that there are possibly two titles in the world that the Triplanar won’t play. I have only about 8000 titles in my library so its highly likely that I won’t run into these titles (and if one of those involves the 1812 then we’re down to one) given how much music there is. These LPs don’t seem to be in the US for starters- so I would not jump to the conclusions as you appear to be doing! Do you know of a source for this test LP? I’d be happy to give it a shot as long its not cannon shots :) !
Atmasphre, I don't belive that I need lessons about the use of
quantifiers. I addressed the participants in this thread so my quantor
''nobody'' does not include the whole universe but only members who
reacted to my post. You are also included because you also deed
not answer my question. My question was if the Triplanar can track
more then 50 microns on tracking ability test records. Among your
4000 records there should be some of those? In my answer to
pbnaudio I mentioned the test records which I used. BTW I deed
not say a single word about my Triplanar sound. I only stated to
be surprised that MY Triplanar ''refused'' to track ''anything''
(aka ''any of my carts'') above 50 microns. So carts which can
track 80 microns with my FR-64 skiped out the groove by 60
microns on the Triplanar. My advice to you is to read careful
what other have written and not put your own inventions instead.
Well nobody (in this thread atmasphere) seem to think that those
tracking ability test are of any importance. But some of the members
concluded that my Triplanar is defective. Why? Because my sample
is not able to track more than 50 microns? But I own MC carts
which also can't track more than 50 microns. However nobody (in
general atmasphere) would proclaim such carts as defective.
Then, regarding manufacturers , why should they publish the tracking
ability values in their specs if those are of no importance at all?
We're using English on this website, so despite your belief it was something that needed correction. Deal.
I don't own any test records. Not a one. I listen to music, not audiophile records. Just music.
This statement is outright false and I find it a bit offensive as I suspect others here do as well.
What's really going on in my case is I just don't believe you. I am happy though to obtain the LP but its not available in the US.
This thread sure got weird. Not exactly the type of responses I was looking for when I started it.
I've owned my TP for several years now and I can't recall ever playing an album and having a tracking issue. Like Ralph(atma-sphere), I don't own a single test record but I do own hundreds of LP's. Frankly, I'd rather listen to music than test the tracking prowess of my arm/cartridge.
I think it's time for nandric to trade in his "record player" for a "perfect sound forever" cd player.
rfogel8, Thanks for your advice but I would also need to ''trade in''
40 of my MC carts, 30 MM carts and my Kuzma Stabi Reference
in order to satisfy your advice. You started this thread with your
question about Triplanar. My question is also about Triplanar.
Your statement: ''this thread sure got weird'' can only mean that
you don't like my question and the possible implication. ''Possible''
because my statement is about my own sample and does as
such not imply that other samples also can't track more than 50
microns. But if this is also the case with other samples ???
Syntax is the only member who questioned Triplanar's construction
in the other Triplanar thread. According to him the problem with
Triplanar is its ''energy transfer''. Herb Papier was a watchmaker
and not a mechanical engineer. So it may be the case that he deed
not even thought about ''energy transfer'' as a relevant design
issue. That my Triplanar skips the groove by 60 microns may be
connected with this ''energy transfer'' but also may mean that
my sample is a single exception and that all other samples can
track 100 microns if the used cart also can.
That you don't like my contribution does not imply that my
question is irrelevant. Also the fact that most participants in
this thread don't own or don't use any test records says something
about them and not about the records themself. Every cart producer
use test records for at least the measuring of the output as well
the tracking capability of their carts. Interesting to know that our
amateur members know better.
brf, ''a problem which I feel does not exit''. Well existance is
not as easy as you think. The most physicist may have believed
that Higgs particle does exist but we in Europe spend huge
amount of money to prove that this particle realy exist. What you
feel is irrelevant for my question. You are entitled to say: ''I don't
care about your question'' but you are not entitled to state that
there is no tracking issue because you feel this way. What kind
of argument is this; ''oratio pro domo?''
For such statement you would need to repeit my experiment and
if your result is different you can then say: the issue does not exist
because I checked with test records made for this purpose.
As I mentiond before Benz LP S claims 80 microns by VTF of
2 g. while Windfeld claim 100 microns by 2,6 g. Do you think that
such claims are based on feelings?
I purchaesd my Triplanar VII second hand a few years back. It was an 09 vi tage with rca leads. I did send it Tri last year for the se upgrade and maintenance go through. I would say that it is a worthwhile upgrade. Besides the cosmetic improvements with headshell and armtube changes, the arm sounds better. The silver wiring and maybe the arm tube definately improved the soundstage presentation. I have a Graham phantom elite to compare with and prior to the upgrade, The Graham easily had a more 3d presentation. The upgrade put the Triplanar in very similar company in my system. I have been using both a Transfiguration Proteus and Zyx Universe II. I have sttled on the Graham with the Proteus which is a spectacular combo and the Universe II paired with the Triplanar. So I am adding to this thread with my experience as a positive one with the upgrade.
I have the "Schalplatte 2" in route will try it on my 12" Tripalnar and report what it can track, have a choice of Cartridges Lyra Atlas, Etna and Ortofon MC Anna for high caliber MC - any particular combination you'd
like to see ?
Link to picture of the Denon DN308 rebuild with the triplanar in "fitting" mode :-)
pbnaudio, At last someone who is willing to check my finding.
BTW this ''Schallplatte 2'' is my ''old companion'' for years. I
even use the anti-skate test in order to get some impression about
the ''inside force'' . One can't get those 80 or 90 microns values
without increaising of the anti-skate force . The right channel
start with distortion first and need compensation with anti-skate.
The German expression is ''Mu'' which means the same as micron.
I really hope that you can refute my finding. Then I can sell my
Triplanar without sense of guilt (grin).
I have several LPs which I recorded (the first being Canto General, music of Mikas Theodorakis). For that recording we got the biggest bass drum in the state, which was a good six feet across. I have the master tapes and I know how this recording is supposed to sound. The LP was cut without any processing whatsoever other than RIAA pre-emphasis.
This LP does quite well as a test record for me as it has very wide dynamic range and very deep bass. Most arms can't play it right; the Triplanar is one of the very few that can. It also easily tracks the Church Windows LP which has groove modulation well in excess of 60 microns.
As others have mentioned, the arm tracks everything you throw at it. In fact this arm taught me that the ability of the arm to track the cartridge correctly is far more important than the choice of cartridge. It is the most adjustable arm in the world and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made.
Regarding not believing you:
Being quite familiar with Occam's Razor, right now its suggesting to me that there is a simple explanation here: despite claims of many arms and cartridges, you may not know how to set up a tone arm and/or you don't have and never had a Triplanar.
I really hope that you can refute my finding ... then I can sell my Triplanar without any guilt
surely you want your findings to be confirmed? Otherwise it is clear your particular Triplanar is defective and hence unsaleable?
FWIW I was a long time Triplanar owner and never found it to be a great tracker, it also lost control on complex passages with blown out bass and edgy sound. My current Durand unipivot was a major step up. In other words I suspect that Nandrics findings will be confirmed
@nandric, it would appear that you prefer simple statement of facts, thus eliminating any confusion as to the meaning or intent. Please allow me to re-post my observations.
To my ears, my Tri-Planar does not mistrack when playing music albums
I don’t care if my Tri-Planar can track 50 microns on a test record
I have no interest in the Higgs particle
I do not like looking up Latin phrases when simple English will suffice
I am interested in learning more about Tri-Planar SE Upgrade
atmasphere, ''it also easily tracks the church Windows LP which
has groove modulation well in excess of 60 microns.'' Interesting
finding for someone who does not own a single test record and
also does not believe in test records.
Folkfreak, before sending my sample for repair I would like to
know if my Triplanar is defective. But if other samples also skep
the groove by 60 microns why should I?
Anyway our member pbnaudio owns the same test record so
no feelings, imagination, defence of the beloved one, excuses,
assumptions ,etc.,etc., will be needed any more regarding the
tracking ability of the Triplanar. Or so I hope.
Thanks mem2112 for your useful comments. I've talked to a few other people who have the TP/Universe combo, all have reported great results.
nandric, sorry if I was a bit sarcastic but I still fail to understand your obsession with test records and being able to track 50 microns.
If you suspect you have a problem, just send it back to Tri Mai and have him check it out. For the few bucks shipping, you'll have peace of mind and if you're still unhappy, you can sell it with a clear conscience.
The story about the ''strawman''. The German have this curious
saying: ''there is nothing more simple than to refute a philosopher;
one only need to read some other''. The case is that philosopher
produce a strawman from their opponents and then beat him to
The ''things'' which can be true or false are statements (propositions,
sentences, etc). But even atmasphere who give me the lessons
about quantifiers stated : ''I don't believe you''. He deed not quote
any of my statements in particular so, obviously , I am a person
who has the property of being always wrong. This would include all
statements which I ever made.
The other participants in this thread also forget to quote any of
my statement but assumed that my Triplanar is defective ?
Why? I assume because my sample can't track anything above
50 microns. However I wrote that 50 micron is sufficient for ''normal
records'' but that I was surprised that my sample was not able to
track more than 50 microns. This however does not imply that
my Triplanar is defective. If other samples also skip out the groove
by 60 microns this should mean that Triplanar has this ''property''
in general. There are low complience carts which can't track more
than 50 microns by their design but nobody would qualify them
as defective. No tonarm whatever can get 60 microns out of
such a cart. My FR-64 was not able to track 90 microns by any
cart even the Windefeld which claim 100 microns.
So what other deed is ascribing to me things which I never stated
which is the same as producing a strawman.
@nandric , the above and this:
Shows that you are an adept at the Stawman. I never said I don't believe in test records, I just said I don't have any.
Generating a false argument and then knocking it down is the very definition of the Strawman.
Since you have engaged in logical fallacy, by definition your arguments are false.
I don't know why you chose to troll this thread. My theory is you want to add status to your clearly outdated and outclassed older tonearms. That's just a theory though. I don't propose to have any idea what's really in your head, but its very clear that you don't have experience with a Triplanar, at least not one that is undamaged.
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