Thiel Owners

^ 

yes it it is a sad state. 

Unsound,

 Thank you for the thoughtful response. I know that takes time and it is good food for thought. 

As a general statement have you guys tried McIntosh amps with your Thiels? Do you like them? If so what did you like or not like. 
 I am kicking around the idea of trying a MC462 with my Thiel 2.4. I realized there are better and cheaper amps. 
Thanks. 

Thanks for the fed back regarding McIntosh. I have heard McIntosh gear many times but never in a controlled environment with direct A/B comparisons. 

I have been running my 2.4s off a McIntosh MC462 power amp for about a month now and I am happy with the results. It should be noted that I highpass my speakers at 60hz. 
While the MC462 does not look like the best match for the 2.4 due to its wicked 2 ohm impedance curve the MC462 does a great job to my ear. I have it connected through the 2 ohm taps. The sound is very balanced and the highs sound better than they ever have through the Thiels with a silkier sound that is not rolled off or lacking detail. The mids have zero glare and there is good texture in the upper mid bass, subs handle the low bass. 
In the past I have used a number of class-d amps (wyred 4 sound), Rotel AB amps, and benchmark equipment. I can’t really speak directly on the sound difference due to so much time between all of them but I feel that the McIntosh/Thiel combo is the most refined and listenable of all my setups.  

Jafant,

I have a simple all digital system. Mac mini computer into a wyred4sound dac, to two JL E112 subs highpassed at 60z to the MC462 amp. 
I dabble in home theater (well maybe more than dabble, with a dedicated, treated all black room lol) so I have a bunch of gear in a rack way off to the side bypassed through the DAC. Large 25x26x7.5’ room but I only sit 9’ from the speakers. Entire ceiling is acoustic panels with 9” of mineral wool behind them. That change helped a lot. 

I plan to get rid of the dac next and move back to benchmark. I will do their new HP4A and DAC. I really like the benchmark stuff but had issues with the volume control on the older models (moved too fast and had poor left to right matching as it changed volume). I tried a few tube preamps and solid state pre-amps and ended up with no preamp at all. I feel like the leading edge of the bass has been lacking since getting rid of the benchmark dac. Odd comment I know but something about it for sure.
I tried the McIntosh C9 preamp/MC462 combo with the Revel 328be and felt the C9 added a little too much “Mac sound” so I think I will stick to a less colored preamp not to mention cheaper. The MC462 is just enough (very subtle) tonal color for me which took the edge of the Thiels and what I was going for.  
On a side note the Revel 328be is a really great speaker I think most Thiel owners would like. Flat tonal balance and wide soundstage with stable dispersion. Seemed to play with limitless volume too (very clean). The highs are really something on them. Makes the highs on the Thiels seem a little dated.  

Thanks yyzsantabarbara, I will read up on the Gustard X26. 

jcatral14,

It was a longtime ago but I made notes that day and still have them (sometimes it helps to be a dork). I demoed the Sophia 3 and Thiel 3.7 in the same room, same system, moving each speaker out of the way for each demo. I switched back and forth for roughly 3 hours. The next day I went back and did the same with the Sophia 3 and 802D2.  I have also owned the Thiel 2.4 for 10+ years and it sits in one of my secondary systems now (Revel 228be with JL subs in my main system).



So these comments are from notes made the day of.  The Thiels were setup with 10-15 degrees of toe in and wilson had heavy toe in to cross just behind the listening seat. Again same room roughly the same spot on the floor. Also used multiple amps. musical fidelity and ARC front ends, tried both on both speakers. The room was large (20x30x15ish) and the speakers were in the middle of the room with the seats on the back 3rd. I sat 10-12’ away.



- tonal balance: the Sophia’s have hard hitting slamming bass compared to the Thiels. Shook the room with what seems like much deeper notes. The 3.7 seemed a little light in the bass in direct comparison. The week before (yes 3 days total) the Thiels in isolation had great bass. The mids and highs seemed to have comparable tonal balance to me. Nothing stood out on either other than the bass on the Sophia 3



-sound stage: The 3.7 has noticeably wider soundstage but less center focus. The singer was a hair more collapsed to the speakers on the 3.7. The center focus on the Sophia was somewhere between the 3.7 and 802D but the singer stood center stage better than the 3.7. The 3.7 sound stage was wider and much more stable. Moving my head did not change it much. The Sophia 3 on the other hand changed and collapsed with my movement. If I sat up or leaned to one side I could heard a clear shift in sound. The mids and tweeter blended well but on a much smaller window and I had to be in the pocket for the drivers to blend well. The Sophia will be harder to setup for sure. But I like the center focus of them. In the sweet spot they were great. As a side note I feel like sometimes deep male voices would collapse to the bass driver on the 3.7.


-details: this was a tie for me.


-enjoyment: that day I came away liking the Sophia 3 a lot more. I put a very high priority on bass and the Sophia was great and at the time the best bass I had heard. Now in a smaller room would it be problematic? Maybe. The Thiel would also gets some room gain… so hard to say.


-my general thoughts. The Thiel is a near perfect speaker imo. Really no flaw but sometimes extra bass is what I want. The Wilsons are clearly voiced to make vocals pop and bass slam and deviate from perfection but they were more enjoyable as I am not an objectivist. After the demo I bought a pair of JL subs (use a high-pass) and was happy for a long time. Being able to tune the bass in my room both for nodes and taste really stopped be from upgrading for a longtime.


  
Since then I have heard most of the Wilsons under $70k and since owning subs  I have not been as impressed with them. Still one of my favorite speaker brands but their prices are silly and a pair of Thiels or Revels with subs still challenge anything on the market imo. Where I think the Thiels are showing their age is in the highs. Some of the new tweeter are simply fantastic. 

tonywinga,

We have conversed in other threads regarding the bass of wilson vs Thiel. I am still surprised you are wanting of bass owning two subs. 

A few thoughts, have you measured your room? You could have a hole in the bass. I struggle with a 10db dip from 60-70hz in my room regardless of whether I ran the mains full range or highpass the subs. I really had to move my speakers around to get rid of it. Could be as simple as a db meter and a test tone track streamed. 


I started with my mains the audiophile way, way out into the room. 6’ off the rear wall and my subs 39” off from the driver face. At one time I had the speakers 7.5’ off the front wall and the sub right beside the mains and also tried the subs 24” off the front wall with the mains at 7.5’. So my point is I have had them all over the room. But I measured each setup and the 60-70hz dip was persistent. 


Then I set my mains only 24” (from the driver face) off the front wall… and got flat bass. It sounded ok too but a hair chesty/boxy. I then broke out the calculator and started figuring out distance and wave lengths I was canceling to put some science behind it. My final solution was to put the subs at 24” off the wall and my mains at 43.5” off the wall. Using a 60hz crossover point puts the long waves out of the subs and the shorter waves out of the mains. 43’ seems to be enough not to cancel at 60hz-90hz. Between 24” and 6.5’ is no man’s land where bass does odd stuff. Don’t forget the ceiling and wall distance sum too and they are normally fixed. 

Here is the kicker. I bought a pair of Revel 228be about a month ago and we’ll they have the exact same issue. Dip in the bass between 60-70hz. After a week of moving them around I also ended up with the subs 24” off the front wall and the speakers 43.5 off the front wall. The room wins every time. You could buy new speakers to end up having the same bass issues you have now. 


Another example:


I alway struggled for bass slam with my 2.4 in my main listening room. A few weeks ago I put the 2.4s in the living room for the wife (she loves them) and I placed them 24” off the wall so the kids don’t bump into them running around playing and guess what? Crazy bass, I mean wow wall shaking bass, with slam I have never heard come out of a thiel. I am talking subwoofer type bass. So I took out the db meter and ran some sweeps. Flat bass to 40hz and down 6db at 33hz. No dip at all between 40-90hz. The room is 26’x19’x8’ with the speakers centered on the long wall and the rear wall opens to the rest of the house. Lots of furniture in the room and kids toys everywhere, total mess, no extra charge for room “treatments” lol. Again just comes down to the room. 
These days I have grown somewhat tired of chasing gear. At this point I am looking at spending most of my further budget on the room. 

tonywinga, 

I understand now what you meant by bass improvement. Most people just mean more or harder impact and subs will do both for you. 

I am listening to the Stanley Clarke “East River Drive” album now listening for what you describe (new music to me thanks!). It is very subtle and I wonder if that “skin” sound is actually a little higher up in frequency as a secondary sound. 


I turned off my subs and high-passed the mains at 135hz and I feel like I could still hear it. Broke out the digital EQ and it might be in the 200-500k range. Hard to say and the detail is very low level. 


I switched over to a pair of Grado PS500e which I often hear that type of stuff on. I could hear it on the headphones but it did not stand out any more. I expected it too on headphones as they are more detailed in the bass. 


I think this type of detail retrieval is getting into super speaker territory and will cost a lot of money lol. 


Heavy room treatments (I see you have treated a bit already) with wide band absorption on the side walls might help pull that kind of stuff out more. Something like a high number of GIK 244 panels or even something thicker as reflection panels to knock down the bass reverb. 

Some music to try. Not really what I like to listen to musically but it has amazing detail and texture. 

Dominique Fils-Aime’ “Nameless” album. This album is demo worth and has the same type of low level details and texture in the drums/bass. I think you will find the audiophile aspects of it pretty good…

duegi,

I used a McIntosh MC462 on a pair of Thiel 2.4s for about 6 months and really liked the combination. Try to 2 ohm tap on the MC462. I found the highs softer and more relaxed on the 2 ohm tap. 
They are hard to find used but a pair of 3.7s with subs could be end game speakers. 

tonywinga,

yes I think we are listening for the same thing. I am just the peanut gallery so you can ignore me lol. 
Having had my Thiels in 4 different rooms now it is amazing how different every room sounded in the bass region. I have also found that different speakers seem to get the same peaks and valleys in the frequency in the same room while being totally different designs. 
A hard lesson for me to lean, buying “better” speakers to have the same issue in the bass. 

Well after 20 years I let my kids make a fort out of my Thiel 2.4 boxes… looks like I will be taking a pair of 2.4s to the grave lol. They have lived in a second system for awhile now.