Geez Geoff, even CDs in my car sound better than that....you need a new Walkman!
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
Showing 35 responses by mitch2
@stevecham
"May I ask, exactly, and respectfully, what the heck is this thread about?"Start with the original question; "why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks."The answer of course is plurium interrogationum, i.e., a complex question fallacy, multiple question, or trick question In the words of Madeleine Albright: I must have been crazy; I should have answered the question by reframing it and pointing out the inherent flaws in the premise behind it.Crazy is the operative word here....but entertaining for sure...carry on..... |
MG...the rest of the story....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxE |
@geoffkait "you should probably get your ears candled pronto."Thanks for the concern but my ears are fine. However, I am concerned that you seem to be a bit "candled" at times; https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=candled Get some rest, clean the heads on that Walkman, and don't go on any river boat trips with your buddy Martin. |
@jf47t "I understand that Michael Green is a "walker". Now I get it; https://static2.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/walking-dead-decaying-zombies.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=798&h=407 |
@jf47t You seem to be trying too hard. I suggest taking it slowly, conducting a self-assessment, identifying the triggers for your sensitivity (i.e., somebody suggests MG is not walking or Robert's posts refuting MG's version of history), exploring your emotions through journaling (maybe start a blog on TuneLand), letting go of the little things, maintaining a positive outlook. Happy walking... |
@geoffkait In the case of some of the others here, I suspect they’re either disinterested, overly skeptical or don’t get good results with what little they do so they give up.Good point Geoff, I plant my flag firmly in the "disinterested" camp (although somewhat amused....and not retired) Snar-ko-lep-syDon't leave out "walkers"....Snarky Walker Alert.... https://static2.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/walking-dead-decaying-zombies.jpgOk, in all seriousness, based on @glupson 's recommendation, I visited Tuneland including the products pages and forum, but not the "members only" section. Unfortunately I came away with more questions than answers;
|
This is really interesting stuff...." two ears and one mouth for a reason" .....I am not quite there, is there a connection with eating more fish? If God wanted us to eat more fish, wouldn’t he have given us two mouths and one ear....or does he want us to hear the fish too? Regarding springs, Geoff sells springs but so does MG...or Harold, or @jf47t . However, it seems Tom sells special springs that Geoff and MG do not understand. Robert doesn't sell springs....hmmm....There are springs on my SUV but I can still feel road vibration. If I use Tom’s springs will that make my SUV a hovercraft? This is all a bit confusing but I am paying attention so I am sure I will understand when we get to the punchline. |
@theaudiotweak GeoffI misunderstood your statement about "ours do," I guess I thought you were some sort of springsmith or coil Captain. Maybe you ought to try a set of Geoff's springs...he swears by them, but MG swears at them, and @jf47t (and/or Harold) swears that MG's springs are better. I have trouble keeping tabs on the Green Team and who plays which position. |
@jf47t
"MG and Geoff learn by actually doing," "MG and Geoff disagree on some of the absolutes but have found a way to allow isolation and mechanical transfer to live under the same roof," " Like with MG and Geoff we on this thread..."and further, " We all have two ears you know (quoting Geoff from the fish post)...." there are no rights and wrongs as Geoff has tried to tell you,"ah, but wait... "Geoff, I don’t want to speak for you (after several posts speaking for Geoff)"and then, just when I thought I understood, @geoffkait "Robert and Tom," " Tommy and Bobby..."I always thought Geoff was an independent but it seems he has joined a team, or acquired a fan club. I apparently have not been keeping up, are Robert and Tom an item, or are we picking sides for dodge ball? Now that would be fun! |
@geoffkait "A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into audio nirvana as a 🐫 has of passing through the 👁 of a needle."Is audio nirvana a club? Is there a doorman? Do you have to bribe him with an mpingo disc or a shiny pebble or crystal? If Lizzie can’t get in then who can? Are you, MG, and jf47t members....are you on the board....who is chairman of the board? Is Robert a member or is he MG’s guest? Maybe audio nirvana a state of mind....or mindlessness....or mind numbing insensibility. There are so many rules to follow it is a wonder anyone has a stereo system anymore. |
Just because it looks strange is no reason to assume it will sound good. Maybe it will sound strange. The Wizard of Oz was no wizard at all. Gandolf on the other hand...... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7M4frMcLFUI/VMe6K2zm-LI/AAAAAAAAALo/THJrf1gS57M/s1600/Hobbit%2Bgandalf.JPG Is walking wizardry? |
@michaelgreenaudio
Regardless of anyone's opinions about the changes, you guys are fortunate to have someone like Tammy, and the Agon staff, looking out for you.+1 Good leaders don't let ego or fear stand in the way of correcting mistakes or making improvements. Thanks Audiogon for listening and correcting course. |
I have been using a "break-in machine" (aka, cable cooker) for years. I will now consider myself a "big picture" guy, enlightened, an early adopter, an innovator, and by association....a walker. Elizabeth, the trick is to shoot the fish, not the barrel, hence the phrase "shooting fish in a barrel" and not "shooting barrels with fish in them". |
Ok, door No. 1 - nothing. They are apparently made from Mpingo (i.e., African blackwood - which is thought to be musical because of the internal structure of the wood) and Gaboon ebony wood. I can find no evidence of any "special sauce" inside of the discs. However, the thought that turning them one way or another can affect the bass and treble is a bit mystifying. Here are some interesting thoughts from one "reviewer", I suspect that all the folks who participated in the original CES demo were "Shun Mooked." This is a psycho-acoustic phenomenon that occurs when you are in a room full of people who believe something WILL make a difference - and it DOES! It's akin to being the only non-committed voter in a room full of party faithful - by the end of the night you will be "a believer." The psychic force of all those committed brains makes you hear exactly what they are hearing. Or not hearing.In fairness, there are other reviewers and folks who think the Mpingo discs are great. |
This is great. Battle of the footers. Today's card includes APs, MTDs, and now DH cones. Where's Mapleshade? Anyone see Herbie?
Myrtlewood anyone? I am still trying to figure what is inside the Mpingo disc..... 1. Nothing - we ruled that out 2. Morphic Message - a possibility but redundent with the writing on the outside 3. The word REDRUM - "Here's Johnny!"....this oft-used cliche is doubtful 4. Tiny crystal - the frontrunner imo....audiophiles love secret crystals and Dr. Kim was a professor in quantum physics....sort of like that Bybee guy that uses "crystal technology" 5. Graphene - I doubt it - this didn't really become popular until after the Mpingo was coined 6. Small rare earth magnet - a possibility, but my money is on the tiny crystal Am I getting closer? |
I like these forums because I learn something every time I visit. I actually did some walking a couple of years ago and tried lighter, smaller (i.e., more hip), Class D amplifiers by that guy from Belgium but alas I had to return to my old school,
overbuilt, yet somehow complicated, 95 pound each, 300 wpc, in room-heater, Class A monoblocks.....because they sound much better. I am surprised to learn I could have simply walked over to Parts Express and bought $20 Class D amplifier boards. Somehow, I am content to have stopped walking and to instead be sitting in front of an excellent-sounding system. When is it ok to stop walking? |
@michaelgreenaudio The OP can be seen at the top of our screens every time we open this thread. Is reposting it a form of "walking" or maybe a subliminal message to help motivate all the talkers-not-walkers? A word to the wise, if you ever start another thread don't begin with, "This isn't meant to start a fight, but" |
@michaelgreenaudio
Since starting this thread we have seen at least 50 threads that give testament to the OP.MG - The thread cited as an example in your most recent post is a BS effort to create a caste system where an elite group owns "expensive and ultra expensive gear" and are persecuted by those who do not own expensive gear and therefore cannot possibly understand. There are no examples of this given by the OP and I have called him out to provide specifics. Respectively, your thread here is not the same as the example thread since your premise has almost nothing to do with money and expensive gear. I suggest you not align your thread with that one. However, there is the similarity that both threads promote a premise of an "us and them" division among audiophiles. |
@kosst_amojan For giggles I decided to Google MG yet again...Ok, I was curious and did so also. I found a bunch of other folks named Michael Green and had to add "audio" to my search. Dismissing MG's own website, facebook, etc., I did find that PS Audio's Paul McGowan gave MG props in 2015 for room tuning a CES room Paul was in with Arnie Nudell. There were also some positive follow-up comments.... https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/ear-openers/ Following his meeting with MG, Paul of course was then inspired to create Red, Black, and Blue fuses. |
MG, you have seemingly thought through the issues related to the maturing/aging of the HEA industry. Your post reads like a combination obituary/inspirational talk with the sum equivalent being, crap happens. Stereophile, Audiogon, MG, or the rest of us have no power to alter the progression of technology, societal changes, or HEA. Enjoy the music. |