About a month ago I added a pair of JL Audio F212's--to the solid state side of the McIntosh C1000C's. They are now seamless with the Dali Megalines. By a substantial margin I prefer the Solid-state (with Subs) section to the Tube side of the Mac preamp.
Sub s for Dali Megaline system
I am interested in a subwoofer system (1 or 2) for my two channel room. It consists of the Dali Megaline III speakers driven by McIntosh electronics--C1000C 3 piece preamp and 2 sets of MC501 monoblocks. My listening tastes vary widely and includes classic/orchestral, classic rock/pop/r&b, and specific female vocalists. I am strongly considering a pair of Jl Audio Fathom 212's (the Gothams seem way too big). I'd appreciate any input. Ray.
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Ray, What are you trying to achieve? 1) Greater bass exention? (I'd think the Dalis go as low as almost any signal on any musical recording, although HT might be a different story. Not so?) 2) Greater clean spl potential throughout the bass region? 3) Smoother bass response? For #1 (if needed) and #2, the big SVS and any 12" or larger from JL should do the trick, since these units have immense clean output capability. The biggest Rythmiks (with a less less clean spl potential way down low) are also worth checking out, especially if multiple units are being deployed (see below). Since each extra sub will increase your clean spl potential at any given frequency, using more subs allows a wider variety of model choice. That is, if 3 or 4 subs are used, you won't need the largest SVS or JL units - that would be overkill. Smaller models or the big Rythmiks should do the trick in this case. For option #3, Digital Room Correction (Audyssey, TacT, Velodyne SMS, etc.) is one answer, provided that you're actively rolling off the low end of the Dalis. Multiple subs -optimally positioned - is another way to smooth bass response. You can always use both approaches - I do. Good Luck Marty |
Aldavis I know what you mean when you say it sound dampened. I am a dealer for Wilson benesch speakers and I have to say that because they are made from carbon fiber and there for very very fast the sound that you hear from the Torus is just that. Clean Clean and Fast Fast.. May the gods of music bless you. No doubt the other gods will curse you. Jim |
Thanks Jim for reminding of something I forgot to mention. A filter in a sub which rolls off frequencies below a cut off value can be a very useful tool. The more octaves a driver has to cover the greater the inter modulation distortion of that driver. A number of well known subs have such a filter for this very reason. This will, of course, raise the measured f3 but will improve the accuracy of the driver. A perfect example of why f3 is a lousy criteria for judging music reproduction quality. If your are listening to H.T. then you may well want an earth shaker with a low f3 and very high output. These can be had very inexpensively. I never really understood why we never judge mains by their frequency response but we do with subs. If you listen to two channel music low e on bass is 41.5hz and a Boesendorfer grand gets you only to 27hz. Below this there is no natural music ( except pipe organ) and human hearing falls off at around 20hz. Yes fundamentals exist below this but all the subs mentioned have some significant output below 20hz. The Torus is a FANTASTIC sub for music. Not so great for H.T. imho. It has virtually no overhang to my ears and sounds highly damped which I think suits music but not explosions. Is it worth it ? Listen in your own home and hear for yourself. Be your own judge. - Jim |
The Torus unlike so many other subs does not have a long throw drive. What it does do is move a lot of air very very quickly. It works in push pull, like an electrostatic speaker. I spoke with Craig Milnes the designer and he said the Torus goes down to 2hz. At that frequency you get more heat then anything else. There is a dip switch on the bottom of the amp that rolls off the low end. You can choose no roll off or 10hz or 15hz or 20hz and others. If you think that a speaker or subwoofer or infrasonic generator is deficient because it doesn't go down to what ever you yourself have established as a base line then you should simply listen to the Torus to clarify all the misinformation floating about. I would simply say that I have no room for speakers or subs that double and take the bass and blow it up out of all proportion. For example a $4000 speaker that says it goes down to 26hz verses a $40,000 loudspeaker that makes that same claim. Which one do you imagine sounds more like real music? The issue is quality over quantity. In America quantity has been wining out but it is up to you to decide. Good luck guys. Jim |
Well, aldavis was working and unable to respond. 24 hours in a hospital over Thanksgiving makes me grumpy so I will try to repond as kindly as possible. Instead of "guessing" I actually measured the response in my room in which I also measured Rel stadium, Jl 113 and 112, Martin Logan depth. This is obviously not an anechoic measurement but it did allow me to compare output "head to head" and have a relatively informed opinion on the subject. Of these the 113 goes the lowest. Now, with regard to price, as I stated, I didn't buy the Torus because of it. That said QUALITATIVELY to me it was clearly the best and this quality costs money. You could cheaply produce a sub with a lower f3 but would this make it "better". The higher you crossover the more quality matters. If you set the lowpass filter to roll off at 34 HZ(-3db) like me the difference is negligable. The torus is for a niche market - rich people obssesed with tonal accuracy who do not listen to a lot of organ music or synthesized bass lines which dominate the music. I object to people who state as a fact what they can not possibly know - anothers intentions. If you would like to check out a more " unbiased" source check out the AVS thread on Torus + Magico minis. One of the participants uses an RTA to measure the output with and without the Torus. The results are shown on the screen. No company b.s. no reviewer b.s. and no aldavis b.s. just the facts. I haven't seen it in over a year and don't remember the exact results. I'm too tired to look it up now. Peace - jim |
"Aldavis said, "The Torus is -3db@20hz. It's flat at 25hz." I have not seen that spec anywhere. It is not on their website that I have seen. Correct me if I am wrong. And for $6000 it cant reach 20 hz....?" I asked that a few days ago and apparently Aldavis is having a hard time finding this also! So he keeps guessing. Bob |
Actually if you want to "really" take it to the max,there is the Eminent Techology TRW-17!! An experienced audio friend had this demoed for him,and was flabbergasted!! This "is" truly a serious design,but requires a commitment from the hobbyist....as in re-doing some vent work in the room/house. It is reviewed on the "IAR" web-site,where it is proclaimed "the only subwoofer". Looks serious,but I have not heard it and never will.I've got alot of experience with REL's better offerings and do think they work well. The room size,and what the hobbyist realistically expects(aside from the financial considerations)will dictate the ultimate success. Good luck....you already have a great speaker-:) |
Acoustat6, The Torus is -3db@20hz. It's flat at 25hz. I've had the Torus, pairs of JL audio's, Rel's and Martin Logans all in my setup. I didn't buy the Torus because I couldn't justify the cost of a pair of them in my almost full range system. They go plenty low if you listen to music which doesn't contain a lot of organ or you are doubling for HT. Qualitatively they were the best and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if it were for 2 channel only and I had a lot of money that my wife didn't have better use for. - Jim |
The choice might be more related to your room size. I am assuming you have a really large room with your Dali's. If that is the case you may chose to move a huge amount of air, (think pant legs waving like a flag in a stiff breeze). The JL Audio subs will do that. If you want the fastest, tightest bass possible then the Wilson Benesch Torus would be you best bet. (Please disregard my opinion since I am a dealer for Wilson Benesch). |
Just added a pair of JL 113's to a pair of Wilson Alexandrias in a 22 x 17 x 11 room. They output plenty of bass for that size room. They are fairly small as well so it is easy to place 2 of them. I had a single REL studio III before that. It was good but harder to set up correctly in my circumstance, partially because of the size. Also it is 3 times as expensive. I have a neighbor with Gothams. They are awesome, but his room is huge. |
If the room can handle it,the JL Audio products seem quite good,but so do the better REL subs.I had great success with the Stentor series.Room size is very important,as is having the ability to place them to best advantage(two is better than one). The Megalines can really deliver the leather(a boxing term)so I assume your room is quite large. The Wilson Benesch subs are supposedly in a league of their own. I'd carefully look at each design,and see if I can get some kind of tryout. With the asking prices of today's high end products,an in home audition is NOT asking too much.Find a good dealer! Best of luck |
You should post this question on Albert Porter's virtual system thread. He's a dealer, but also owns the Megalines and has done just about everything imaginable with them. His system thread is now 31 pages long, but he does answer any and ll questions as best he can. |
