Hey this is subjective. If you can't handle that then you're in the wrong forum. And by tonally I meant timbral accuracy, not frequency response, which I find to be one of the worst objective measurement to assess speaker sound. But if freq response is your thing, have at it. I've heard both C1.1 and D1 in my dedicated audio room with the same electronics. Granted I have not heard the Magico in my room, I have auditioned them 5 separate times and each time I get the same impression, dynamic as hell, extended bass chest thumping bass and hard in the upper midrange. Clinical sounding is a good way to describe them. It's not my type of sound, but I know a lot of people prefer this.
Your last sentense is condescending and has douchebag written all over it. |
I'm breaking in a pair of Raidho D1 at the moment, driven by Aesthetix electronics (Romulus/Callisto/Atlas) and Nordost Valhalla all through in a medium sized living room with modest acoustical treatment.
My findings after about 10 hours of listening (the time needed for suitable break-in is stated at about 250 hours by Raidho) is close to what Dracule1 describes above. If you value a natural, open and truly homogenic musical experience you owe it to yourself to audition this speaker. Raidho is not about the dissection and/or the exaggeration of individual parts of the frequency spectrum (which makes a lot of modern speakers academical, clinical and uninvolving to these ears). Instead, they're all about the delivery of music in a way that relaxes your brain in favour of the completeness of the musical experience.
I hope that makes sense. |
Dracule1 - I can handle anything, don't you worry. Your comments are indeed subjective and quite imaginative. It started with the "I know a dealer who..." and now claiming that Magico sound is "dynamic as hell... and have chest thumping bass". I bet you never heard a Magico, you are the first person who ever described their sound that way (Oops, I forgot, it is all subjective, you can say anything...). Hope that was not too condescending for you, it is the best a douchebag can do |
Freq response measured by a reviewer or by the manufacturer tells you little about how the speakers will measure in your room. So extrapolating some published freq response (measured in anechoic or quasi-anechoic condition) to someone's home environment is about as useful as putting bicycle tires on a Porche. Unless you do your listening on an anechoic chamber. FR measured in that manner doesn't take into account room modes, reflections, slap echoes, etc that we hear at home. And it tells you nothing about transient response, imaging, timbral correctness, etc. Why don't you consider these factors before posting a misguided response about "objective" lab measurement that has little to do with what we hear in the real word. |
After 4.5 years with a pair of Evolution Acoustics MM3 (2 12" woofers, 2 ceramic mids, 1 ribbon tweeter), I went for new speaker hunting a bit more than one year ago. I have heard probably 150 speakers, and the best ones (Magico, TAD, Vivid, Raidho...) in different set up. I ended up buying a pair of Magico Q1. With all the buzz from JV, I went of course to hear the different Raidhos. They are good speakers, with a sweet sound, but would have been a lateral move compared to my MM3, not a real upgrade. Ribbon tweeter are very pleasing at the beginning (light, airy), but my experience is that they never fully integrate with the medium, probably because of the very different dispersion pattern. Compared to the beryllium of magico tweeter, it lacks to my ears a bit of weight and sound density. Also, after several years with ceramic mids, I realized that there is always a "ceramic coloration" that you find back on different brands (Marten, Tidal, EA, Raidho...). Last, the Q1 are much more dynamic and transparent. Level of realism on female voices gives me goose bumps. Not sure how much is coming from the driver vs. the cabinet construction (rigidity of a braced aluminum cabinet is of course not the same as MDF.... but cost to produce is also not the same). At least to my humble ears, they are in a different league. Actually, after 10 mths with them, I realize that I am listening to much more music than with the MM3, which is a good sign (my tastes are mainly baroque music and jazz). One remark however: given the very high transparency of magico speakers, they behave like "real chameleon" on different amps. They don't have a sound by themselves. I find for example the sound cold and analytical on Spectral. But gorgeous on my Dartzeel (or with Vitus or Gryphon). SO you cannot judge them based on a single audition, upstream sources are key.
Talking about other good speaker brands I encountered in my upgrade journey, I would personally prefer a pair of small Vivid than the Raidho monitors. The Vivid would have been my second choice after the Q1. The TAD and Raidho would come after that.
Hope it helps- just my opinion... |
Hi Dracule,
I think you make some valid points.
Taken alone, a measurement of frequency response provides
little more than an indicator of the spectral-balance;
which, although an important audible parameter, is hardly an
accurate indicator of overall reproduction accuracy.
Further, I believe the measurements Usermanual cites are for
the earlier version C-1.0 loudspeaker, since superseded by
the C-1.1 which introduced refinements to both the tweeter
and woofer.
If we are being strictly objective about things, the
fabulous Magico Q1 loudspeaker was also measured by MC to
have a depression from 1.2 to 4.5 KHz which Âaveraged 3dB,
and an energy prominence at 5 KHz. Does that make the
Magico a poor speaker? Not at all. Criticizing the
performance of a loudspeaker solely from a review of its
measurable parameters is a bit like writing a restaurant
review directly after reading the list of the food
ingredients . |
Keeping auditions short is a good way of hearing what you will continue to hear each time you turn on your system. The initial impression will always remain the same in my experience. However, after sitting and listening to the same speakers for a while I find that my brain begins to adapt the sound, effectively changing what I hear. I have a set of Focal Utopia Micro Be monitors that do exactly this. When I turn them on I like them but after five minutes, I love them. It is another interesting part of this hobby - that patience is rewarded. |
Usermanual, you have a knack for coming to erroneously oversimplified conclusions to complex subjects, as you did with FR. Now you assume I have never heard the Magicos based on a sentence from this single thread. If you did your homework, you would see I have talked about them on multiple occasions. I first heard them at Goodwins in Waltham, MA. If you know anything about high end dealers, they probably one of the best dealers in the country with dedicated acoustically treated rooms costing up several hundred thousand dollars. They also carry Rockport, Avolon, Wilson, etc. Unlike most dealers, they have flagship speakers from each manufacturer. I've also heard them at a dealer in Austin and several times at RMAF. Each time Magicos did not sound like the thing. Just because its the first time you've heard them described as dynamic as hell with chest thumping bass doesn't mean it isn't so. I know other audiophiles who have described them similarly. They are certainly not adynamic and anemic in the bass. |
Dracule  I have been to Goodwins few times, and just for the record, they do not carry Wilson, nor have I seen any top of the line Avalon there. Again, you should be a bit more factual with your comments. In any case, I have never heard anyone describing the Magico the way you do. I mean, if Magico sound to you as if they were a Wilson, what would Wilson sound like? Since this is all subjective to you, one has to take in to account your comments on the Magico and conclude that the Raidho are extremely lean and anemic.
Kiwi_1282001 - the
>>fabulous Magico Q1 loudspeaker was also measured by MC to
You never heard me declaring that the Q1 are Âmost tonally accurate speaker I've come across (Although , objectively they are more accurate than the Raidho). Nor did I say that the Raidho are not fabulous. One thing the Raidho are not and it is ÂaccurateÂ. Even JV admits that they are more Âbeautiful (i.e. colored) then ÂaccurateÂ.
|
Usermanual, Actually they did back in 2001 to 2006, including the discontinued martin logan 4 tower statements. you really need to do your fact checking.
Who cares what JV says. If you buy equipment based on reviewers, you are in a sad state. He uses different electronics and cables than the rest of us. His hearing is no better than most of us. What matters is how the speakers sound to the end user, not what a reviewer says. So if Magico gets you off, go enjoy them if you can afford them. |
Usermanual, what is the extent of your experience with the D1? Have you actually auditioned it in your home? What electronics did you use with the D1? What is the dimension of your room? What room treatments do you have? Have you measured your room modes and decay times? Do you have dedicated audio room with dedicated AC lines? Since you make yourself out to be such and expert on the Magico and Raidho, tell us how, where, and with what electronics you evaluated these speakers. I will happily provide you with the above info for my system. |
Dracule - I am not interested in sharing opinions, I can assure you that we will not agree on much. I am interested in facts. You already dismissed objectivity and, quite frankly, subjectivity as well (ÂWho cares what JV saysÂ). So basically, it looks to me that unless I agree with you, we will go nowhere with this. So, as you suggested to me, go enjoy your speakers and have a good weekend.
BTW, I think that we both picked our usernames appropriately (-; |
Dracule 1 - having heard both C1.1 and D1 in your dedicated audio room, how does your pair of Sason performs against both Raidho? |
guys... let's stop the pissing contest... People have different opinions and taste, that's fine. Forums should be about sharing personal opinions, not criticizing each others...
Dracule1: Before my purchase, I have heard probably more speakers than 99% of Audiogon people, for the simple reason that I travel 250 days a year across 3 continents. I have a fully treated room, with dedicated power supply and a 10kW equitech power conditioner. Electronics are APL NWO-M player and Dartzeel amp. MIT MAX2 and HD120 cables. Room nodes are treated with more than 30 Helmholtz resonator. Room response is +-2dB down to 24Hz (and around 35Hz with the Q1). You can see my system with measurements on the Magico section of WBF ("new home for my Q1"). Besides the Q7 and the Magico Ultimate (that I have on order), I have not heard a more convincing system than what I am hearing now on the Q1 (and yes, everybody thought I am crazy when I replaced the MM3, a 600lbs/piece monster speaker by a small monitor). |
JV says please. I would run the opposite way with any of his likes or recommendations. |
guys... let's stop the pissing contest.. Well......only when you do......? |
Usermanual, based on your response I pretty sure you don't have a dedicated room that's been treated properly. And I doubt you can have the capacity to properly evaluate a speaker or any other audio component, subjectively or objectively. Have fun rocking out on your Cerwin-Vega ;) |
Ngchaisooon, Raidho's are better in almost every way, but the D1s are twice the cost of the Sasons. Raidho's have more refined and extended high frequency response, are more coherent and holographic, have better microdynamics and blacker background, and more accurate in reproducing timbre of instruments. The Sasans do have more extended and dynamic bass. The C1.1 are in between the Sasans and D1s. |
Stereotaipei, you have an amazing setup, better than 99.99% of the so called reviewers out there. I can only imagine the length and expense you've put in your setup. IMO, the room is the most important audio component. Get that right, and you can make mediocre speakers sound great. And a treated room does not have to be expensive. Often times a couple grand of room treatment will do wonders. A lot of audiophile spend more on their cables. And I am not surprised; a good 2-way monitor speaker is more coherent and give a better illusion of the performers being in your room than a big 3- or 4-way speaker. The Q1s are not my cup of tea, but that's not important. It's what you like in the end. My hats off to you. |
Jwm, in the past my taste in gear was polar opposite of JV's. But the Raidho's are different. |
Excuse my ignorance guys, but who is this JV? |
Jonathan Valin of The Absolute Sound |
Kiwi, sorry I forgot to respond to your post. I agree with you wholeheartedly. People who think they are objective and can distill the sound of a speaker based on anechoic FR measurement show there lack of understanding of how a speaker performs in our homes. The Raidho D series are special, aren't they? |
Hi Dracule1,
Yes, there seems to be a thought collective out there subscribing to the notion that accuracy equals a ruler flat anechoic frequency response from 20Hz to 20 KHz.
Objectively this may be true  but there is a world of difference between what is measured in an anechoic chamber and what we actually end up listening to.
For one thing, and as you point out, our listening room acts like a big tone control. Many audiophiles are not aware of how badly their room damages sound quality. No matter how much one has paid for their loudspeakers, amplifiers and source and regardless of their published specifications, as soon as you put them into a typical living / listening room they will exhibit a horribly skewed frequency response. Without some form of correction, much of the sonic benefit therefore derived from more expensive hardware can to a large extent be masked by poor room acoustics.
For another, while our listening rooms are non-linear [with some exceptions like the terrific work of Stereotaipei] so are our ears! Not only are our ears less sensitive at frequency extremes they are also more sensitive in the 2-5 KHz range and have maximum sensitivity at around 3-4 KHz.
For these reasons I earlier wrote that criticizing the performance of a loudspeaker solely from a review of select measurable parameters is a bit like writing a restaurant review directly after reading the list of the food ingredients .
To your second point, yes, the Raidho D-Series is special. They are unique and by all accounts they are selling very well. Last weekend both Lars Kristensen and Michael Børresen of Raidho Acoustics were in Singapore to exhibit at a modest local audio show. Sales for Raidho have climbed rapidly in Asia so it was no surprise to see them both present. The Raidho D-1 held centre stage in a massive 110 square meter room and judging by the post show commentary was very well received by patrons.
I was also pleased to meet Sabai at the show. He was collecting new RaidhoÂs to replace his Joseph Audio Pulsars. |
Hi Kiwi,
I recently bought a pair of Raidho C1.1 monitors. I know you use Nordost Heimdall (version 2) for interconnects and speaker wire. Have you tried other brands of cables with your Raidho D2 speakers? If so, did you the Heimdall to be significantly better (presumably due to the synergy between Raidho speakers and Nordost cables)? I would appreciate if you could also mention the other brand cables you have tried (if any).
Also, have you had a chance to compare with Frey and Tyr (version 2) speaker cables?
Thank you! |
It was a pleasure meeting Kiwi_1282001 at the Singapore show. I was very glad to have the opportunity to audition the D1s in such a large room. Talking to Michael and Lars was a real experience -- very informative. |
Hi Apdoc2004,
Congratulations on the purchase of the Raidho C1.1's. I know you were also considering the Magico Q1, TAD CR1 and Dynaudio C1.
Re your question on cables - I will send you a separate message. |
Hi Kiwi,
Thank you! Your response was very helpful. |
I'm also very interested in potential candidates to Nordost (which might be the obvious partner) with Raidho.
Any experiences are welcome! |
Kiwi_1282001,
I would also be very interested in learning what wires and cables you are using. |
Just to share some experience with Raidho d1, I was very fortunate to have lar and Boressen visit my room in BKK after S'pore show, I was running my D1 with Hi diamond cables pc, sc,ic , all top of the line , the sound was very satisfying,
Little laid back , good speed, 3d sound stage, good impact and little warm.
I also have hi fidelity ct1e IC, sc for unbalance system which is also very good but in different way, more quiet background , deeper soundstage , faster and more detail but less relaxing. Lar show me his Ansuz cable and slow plug in to my system first sc then pc, IC , to my ear it outperform my cable significantly,as it is already late at night, he left the cables with me so
I have a chance to do whatever I like, these 3 days I keep comparing, mix and match, and at the end have to admit that my belove cables are in different leage with Ansuz , it give everything hi diamond and hifidelity combine and more, hard to describe into words, singer and instrument came out of a very black background with full body, sometime I feel like I could touch them . The interesting part is that ,this is not top of the line .
I've no idea how this compare to Odin, but for Valhalla, I sold it and bought hi fidelity ct1e |
@Noom
I'm a little bit confused.. Do you mean that the Anzus cables outperformed your current cables, or the other way around? |
@sidekick_i
Yes Ansuz outperform my cables in my system, better presentation and more realistic singer. Still keep comparing as this is my 4th day with Ansuz. |
@Noom
Thanks for the clarification. I've heard the Ansuz (Diamond I believe) equal Nordost Odin myself, so I'm not surprised by your findings. |
