Questions about Ethernet Cabling

@tvad - thank you for the suggestions. As I mentioned earlier, I've ordered a cheap switch from Amazon. Once I put it in, the configuration is actually going to look the same as second picture in your post, i.e. with two switches. Let's see how it goes. I will keep you posted.

Thanks for the feedback, folks. 

@lalitk So the ENO pack that I bought comes with their nice ethernet cables for both ends. The problem is that even the longer cable is too short to reach the in-wall socket. I have ordered a cheap switch from Amazon for the time being. I tried English Electric Switch8 in the past, and at least in my system, and I wasn't impressed at all, so I returned it. The plan is as follows: Media Room In-wall socket >> CAT6 cable >> Cheap router >> ENO's ethernet cable >> ENO filter >> ENO's ethernet cable >> Innuos Zenith.

I would love to buy the same switch that you have, but right now it's out of my budge given that I've just bought an expensive streamer and ENO. But that switch is still on my wish list. Hopefully, I will be able to buy one a few months down the line.

@antigrunge2 I appreciate your suggestion. It's just that my experience with another switch in the same price range as the etherregen (I bought EE Switch8) was nothing to write home about. I tried it for almost three week but I wasn't impressed at all. In fact, I felt that it reduced the dynamics and the soudstage collapsed a little. So I ended up returning it. This is not to say that the etherregen will face the same fate, but I'm definitely a bit leary at this point.

But let me ask you this, can any of the clocks you mention work in conjunction with a different switch (e.g. D-Link) and/or Eno? Or is etherregen a requirement?

@lalitk Sorry, I made a mistake when describing the setup. I meant to say network switch, not router. So the correct version is ...

Media Room In-wall socket >> CAT6 cable >> Network Switch+LPS >> ENO’s ethernet cable >> ENO filter >> ENO’s ethernet cable >> Innuos Zenith

But based on our earlier discussion, I'm going to first try the Supra Cat 8 cable ...

Media Room In-wall socket >> Supra Cat 8 cable >> ENO filter >> ENO’s ethernet cable >> Innuos Zenith

@antigrunge2 I was looking at another Innuos product called PhoenixNET. It seems to be an audiophile-grade network switch with a nice power supply and a clock that's a trickle down from their top of the line Statement server. Not sure if you've heard anything about it.

It seems to be quite expensive for what it is, but when you consider the alternative, it doesn't seem to be all that bad. If you get the etherregen + LPS + clock + LPS for clock, it starts getting quite pricey as well. And you have to deal with all the boxes and cabling. Not sure if anyone had a chance to try it yet.

@grannyring Thanks for chiming in. It was actually your thread on Eno and Zenith that motivated me to purchase both recently. I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind ...

1. Do you leave the Zenith on all the time (talking about the front switch) or do you switch it off when not in use? I don't know if it makes a difference either way.

2. Is there a way to make Zenith the Roon core, but still easily switch back and forth between Sense and Roon? I know you can switch back and forth when using Zenith as a Roon endpoint, but not sure if the same is true when using it as Roon core server.

Thanks

@fittebd -- The Innuos Zenith in fact replaced a Sonore opticalRendu in the media room. I'm now using the opticalRendu in my study. After trying out a few streamers at different price points, I can safely say that it is a phenomenal streamer that can stand its own against more expensive ones. The fiber optic conversion definitely makes a noticeable difference. Compared to the Zenith, I would say the opticalRendu provides probably 90% of performance at almost 1/3 the price. Not bad at all.

Where Zenith, in my opinion, has a slight edge is that it sounds more analog and has a slightly more refined presenation. But TBH, I could have easily lived with the opticalRendu.

@grannyring Thank you. I have to find a way to transfer my stuff from the current Roon core (Sonore Transporter i5) to Zenith, and then start using it as a core. Hopefully, I can sell the Transporter to fund some other goodies like better switches and clocks. 

As I mentioned in the OP, the Cat6 cable connecting the switch in my study to the media room is over 100 foot long, in fact if you consider the vertical distances (up and down the ceiling), we're probably talking close to 200 feet. Plus my house is divided in three separare attics with hard to reach places, which makes replacing with Fiber a very costly altenative. But I do agree that it is a superior alternative.

@fittebd Did you get the optical version of the Signature Rendu? I think it's called the Signature Rendu SE optical Level 2. This one was high on my list but I decided to give Innuos a try especially after reading glowing reviews about their Sense software. I'm going to let it burn in for 100 hours before making any critical judgments, but so far it's only marginally better than the opticalRendu that it replaced. Too early to judge though.

I often wonder if I should have gone with the Signature Rendu SE optical instead. 

@yyzsantabarbara -- that’s actually not a bad idea to use a switch that provides SFP fiber ports. I think this is similar to what @duckworp mentioned earlier. I already use a similar converter (not switch) in my office setup with the opticalRendu and can attest to the benefits of isolation and reduced noise floor.

For my main setup though, using the switch you mentioned is a possibility but since I already have an Eno filter in the chain, I’m assuming its providing similar benefits. But definitely a path worth considering.

Also, my experience with English Electric Switch8 was similar to yours with etherregen. My hunch is that fiber takes out the need for expensive switches so you don’t really notice any improvements. However, these switches might offer some benefits for non-fiber based chains. I’m really surprised that we don’t see many streamers/players based on Fiber optics in the market. The only ones I’m aware of are from Sonore and Lumin X1.

The. more I read about this, and the more I learn from folks like @lalitk and @antigrunge2 the more I think that things happening before the streamer are perhaps even more important than the streamer itself. Better switches, clocks, wires ... I’m almost beginning to wonder if one is better off buying less costly streamers and investing more money in fiber optics switches, clocks, and USB relockers.

I won’t be surprised if we start seeing single-box solutions in the future -- including switches, ethernet or fiber input, clocks, better LPS, and USB relockers all in the same box. Not everyone appreciates a jumble of boxes, LPS and wires everywhere :)

As I mentioned earlier, this thread is not about debating whether ethernet cables, or any other cables for that matter, are effective or not. I don’t necessarily disagree with the explanations provided above, but I’ve also learned that there are things we just don’t know how to measure or account for yet. I was a power cord and speaker cable denier for the longest time. One day, I actually tried - yeah, imagine the audacity of actually trying something, a nice speaker cable and haven’t looked back since then. The same ’zeroes are zeroes and ones are ones’ arguments are thrown around when describing DACs, and therefore a $200 DAC is no better than a $5k one. But of course, people who actually have heard the better DACs in appropriately high end systems can tell the difference. But that has never stopped the naysayers.

If we were to follow the ASR type of reasoning based solely on measurements, we could argue that there was absolutely no sound on earth before we developed the ability to measure it. People only communicated using hand gestures. That’s obviously not true. Just because we can’t meausure something doesn’t necessarily imply a lack of existence.

Secondly, we ran an experiment at a friend’s house using different ethernet cables and both of us were able to discern a difference. It was subtle but noticeable. Now you can argue it was implicit bias at work ... so what? It’s a hobby, not a science project for most of us. We're not solving world hunger or curing cancer here. If WE can hear a difference, whether measurable or not, whether perceived or real, that’s all that matters.

@sns -- totally agree with you. Both @yyzsantabarbara and I have tried the opticalRendu and can attest to the benefits that fiber brings to the table. Just like @yyzsantabarbara I too am stumped as to why there are so few companies offering fiber optic-based solutions in the market. I mean if Sonore can do it in a reasonably priced package, why can't other companies do the same.

So a quick update ... adding a second switch (in the media room) that sits between the wall jack and Eno was an abject failure. I bought a basic D-Link switch with iFi power supply. It felt like someone put a thick blanket over the sound. The degradation in sound, especially soundstage depth and overall vibrancy was very noticeable. I will let it run for a few hours, but honestly the result is so bad that I doubt it will be worth it even if it were to improve a little. So clearly, Rich's (ENO owner) suggestion of having two switches in the path did not work in my case. The English Electric Switch8 also did not do diddly squat in my chain when I tried it a few months ago. Personally, I'm reaching the conclusion that unless one is willing to invest in higher end switches (Telegartner or Melco, etc.), don't even bother.

As sugggested, I will try a better ethernet cable and report the results faithfully as I hear them.

@ianrodger -- thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, in my area houses do not have basements, and there is no way to run the wire underneath the house without performing some major surgery. There are a number of hallways and other rooms in the way.

On a side note, I want to clarify that there’s no real problem that I have in my current setup. It still sounds pretty damn good! I was just trying to see if adding a second cheap switch or better ethernet cables in the last mile might result in any further improvements. So clearly, the second cheap switch thing didn’t work. Not only did it not work, it did harm to the sound quality. Let’s see how a better ethernet cable might fare once it’s delivered next week.

@jerrybj -- someone like @lalitk or @antigrunge2 are probably more knowledgeable on this topic, but I would say something like an ENO filter (Network Acoustics) might not be a bad option to consider. I tried my Zenith MK3 both with and without the ENO, and it definitely makes a subtle but noticeable improvement. It allows for a blacker background which in turn improves transparency and detail retrieval in my system. But it's not a night or day difference for sure.

@lalitk -- Agreed. As we discussed a few weeks ago, something like Telegartner is part of the not-so-distant future purchase plan. The cheap switch was always supposed to be a stopgap measure, but what I didn’t account for was that it would actually degrade sound quality to this extent. Well, you live and learn.

As I mentioned earlier, the EE Switch8 didn’t work in my system. I know @grannyring has had success with his. For some reason when I talked to the dealer at the time of purchase, he said that EE actually recommends switching PS over LPS. So I never bothered with an LPS. I wonder if that was the missing piece of the puzzle.

@antigrunge2 -- Based on my rather ordinary experience with EE Switch8, I’m a bit leery of trying another product in the same price range. I think to hear ’substantial’ improvements, something like a Telegartner is probably the way to go. Innuos’s PhoenixNET is another option. Both are much pricier than EtherRegen to be fair though.

At this point, I need to decide my next move ... do I first improve the USB side of things by inserting something like the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker/regenerator, or invest in a better switch upfront. Eventually, I might end up doing both, but let’s say if I have to get one of them first, which one do you guys think will provide a more noticeable improvement?

I wanted to provide a quick update ...

I received the Supra Cat8 ethernet cable a couple of days ago, and tried a few different configurations. The best config that I settled on is something like this ...

Media Room >> Wall jack >> Supra Cat 8 >> Cheap router (with ifi power supply) >> Network Acoustics ethernet cable >> Eno filter >> Network Acoustics ethernet cable (short) >> Zenith MK3 >> Silnote Epirus Elite Master USB cable >> Luxman DA-06

FWIW, the Supra Cat 8 is clearly better in my system compared to the generic Cat 6 I was using earlier. I know this is going to rile up some folks, but I hear what I hear. The changes are subtle but the Supra Cat 8 has clearly reduced the noise floor, and removed the tiny bit of digital harshness that existed before. Thanks @lalitk for the suggestion.

But I must say the star of the show is Eno. I tried to remove it from the chain and it's one of those things that you don't know what you're missing until you remove it from the chain. It provides a blacker background and does a great job of getting digital a few steps closer to vinyl. I thought my system was pretty decent to begin with, but Eno + Supra Cat 8 + Innuos Zenith has really elevated the performance to new levels. 

I think I'm done for 2021 :)

@timo62 -- the PhoenixNET switch definitely sounds very interesting. It's a little pricey but if you consider the alternative, i.e. the jumbled mess of wires and boxes, it's actually not a bad deal, and not really that much more expensive considering everything else. What gives me pause is that there is a dearth of reviews and feedback from actual owners. Of course, you have your usual professionally written reviews but that's neither here nor there.

I've been doing some research ... okay, what I really mean is asking a lot of people whose opinions I trust ... and I'm of the opinion that I'm better off putting my money towards a DAC which has a really good built-in clock and employs better isolation techniques before I invest in an external switch like Phoenix. In the meantime, I might try a cheaper alternative like EtherRegen to see if it makes a difference. But to be honest, my current configuration (Supra Cat8 >> Eno >> Zenith >> DAC) is sounding splendid! I don't think my system has ever sounded this good. I'll probably just enjoy what I have for the time being.

@nmolnar 

f possible, connect mesh routers together with  Ethernet cable or fiber backhaul runs for best performance.

I'm curious why connecting 'mesh routers together with ethernet cable' vs. the ethernet cable directly from my router in the study is going to provide improvements. Can you elaborate on this point if you don't mind?

BTW, I use a Google Nest Wifi mesh system and tried it in my media room, but I didn't feel it provided any improvement, so I went back to regular ethernet the way it was. I agree with you about the benefits of fiber optics, but as I said earlier, given the over 200 foot distance and other reasons, it is not feasible to run a long fiber cable at the moment. But that is something I might consider down the line for sure.

Also, I own an SGC opticalModule Deluxe that I'n using with my opticalRendu in my study. This setup used to be in the media room before I got the Innuos Zenith MK3 and Eno filter. Initially, I didn't feel that the Zenith + Eno combo was better than opticalRendu. But I kid you not, after putting over 50 hours on the Zenith, it has far surpassed the opticalRendu. My main system has never sounded this good.