I own the GAE along with a Technics SP10 mk3 NG by Artisan Fideluty which has a Kuzma 4 Point installed and a MC Anna. My GAE holds its own with its much older and bigger brother (my mk 3 weighs about 180 lbs) with the beyond excellent stock Cold drawn magnesium alloy arm. This is not the same arm as the original 1200 series. Currently I use a LP Zupreme headshell with my Denon 103R and London Reference. The headshell really benefitted the 103R.
For my tastes I see no reason whatsoever to mess with the arm and I can go from my mK3/kuzma directly to my GAE and keep the biggest smile on my face.
I humbly suggest that some of you ignore the fact that the arm looks like the old arm and just simply use your own ears. You don't need people to tell you what sounds good. Just listen to it. Just remember that had this arm been designed and built by some of these smaller companies it would also cost several thousands of dollars.
I ave a good deal of experience with the Triplanar arm, I'll stick with the stock arm on the GAE.
I'm the individual that runs mine with lowered torque. The speed is dead on and I mean dead on. It sounds fantastic with no anomalies.
Try "Turntabulator" on your iPhone (not sure if there is an Android version) as it is the most accurate way to check speed I've found.
The GAE can go head to head with anything I've heard and that with the stock magnesium arm. |
Jbhiller:
definatley don't use a lot of force on the potentiometer (it is not a screw).
When you are making these changes I would have the unit powered down or unplugged from the wall socket.
the fact that it was aleafy turned down doesn't mean anything as it should have been defaulted to the "Auto" mode which means the unit ignore the position of the pot.
You should have been able to easily turn the pot clock-wise which would indicate it was at the end of its range in the counter-clockwise direction.
Set the flip switch to manual and then adjust the pot such that it is 1/5 of the way up which you mean it is mostly turned counter-clockwise.
Hope this helps.
never force the potentiometer. |
Jbhiller:
I'ts an an awesome table and I'm glad you're enjoying yours. You are the only other person that I've read whose tried going into manual mode and lowering the torque. I went back to auto mode about 2 weeks ago just to remind myself of how its sounds in that mode. Fifteen seconds and I was back to manual mode :)
Evidently Mr. Fremer thought enough of it to do two you tube vids of the SL1200G in direct comparison to his Caliburn with the SAT arm. I've listened to them both very carefully. I'm fairly sure I can hear which is which. The technics having better pitch on the Glockenspiel but also because he has the unit in auto mode the decay and sustain suffers somewhat on the Technics.
Also one other piece of advice, the stock mat is horrendous, at least to my ears (as was the stock mat on my SP 10 MK3. I have a prototype acrylic mat that I've been using for several months supplied to me by Chris over at Artisan Fidelity. It sounds incredible with this table. I'm not sure if it is a real product as yet but it couldn't hurt to ask him.
Thinking of getting a VDH Grail SB for the GAE, using it with an iPhono2/iTube2 (wired up to regulated linear power supplies) with about 250 hours on iFi devices. It would have to be heard to be believed, they are world class. Actually the iPhono2 is better than even Mr. Fremer stated when used with a regulated linear supply and the iTube2 makes a it true baby AMR PH77. |
I realized I left an incomplete statement when I wrote: "It is interesting when I read the comments about the styling of the table, as a watch guy I've read statements by other WIS (watch idiot savants :) folks concerning the Grand Seiko line."
I intended to write:
It is interesting when I read the comments about the styling of the table, as a watch guy I've read statements by other WIS (watch idiot savants :) folks concerning the Grand Seiko line which mirror some of the sentiments concerning the GAE. Statements such as GS watches are great but they don't look cool enough. Interestingly the parallel between the GS watches and the GAE are close in that pictures don't seem to do justice to either. The real items are far more beautiful than print ad would lead one to believe.
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Jbhiller:
You should still hear the same level of "boogie and drive" with the unit in manual mode.
Concerning the design, I love it. In some ways the jewel like precision and construction reminds me of some of my GS Seiko watches. Absolutely some of the finest engineering you will find anywhere without the ostentatious trappings.
I for one do love the design, I think they got it right over 30 years ago and so therefore why tamper with it. It is extremely functional and easy to use.
The designer of this table has a SP10 mk 3 and used the mk 3 as the reference when designing the GAE and I can hear it when I directly compare the two tables.
The Japanese are more about tradition and functional elegance than style for the sake of style. It is interesting when I read the comments about the styling of the table, as a watch guy I've read statements by other WIS (watch idiot savants :) folks concerning the Grand Seiko line.
Like I say about my watches, if you know, you know. Ask most people to name a fine time piece and all they can do is name several watch companies that have huge marketing budgets and generally swap the same movements over and over again between casings.
This table is the real deal and it is for people in my opinion who want stellar playback, a high level of functionality and are not concerned if it looks like its forerunner of the same name.
Truth be told its really a SP10 mk 2.5.
I love the fact that I can easily and repeatedly adjust the vta, vtf, antiskate, that it has a built in cue light..,etc.
Fortunately for us there are a great number of tables out there for individuals to choose from.
I find this to be one of the best I've heard and that includes some very rare air tables indeed.
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Mr. Fremer just revealed which table was playing in the comparison of the GAE and the Caliburn. I correctly identified the GAE in the fist YouTube video he posted. Mr. Fremer wrote: "The file labels were not reversed in this story! In this case the Technics should have sounded better and I’m glad many people heard that, but there’s a good reason and it's why i asked you to listen and look!" He goes on to discuss a problem with the pressing and is going to perform comparison with another pressing. Regardless of the pressing this verifies what some of us have stated about how good this table is. It is not good for the money, it is just plain exceptional. I hope he performs the next comparison with the GAE in manual mode and with the torque set to 20%. Read more at http://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-sl-1200g-versus-continuum-caliburn-and-sat-arm-file-ide... |
Jbhiller:
Your analogy of the table sounding like it couldn't loosen its top button when it is in auto mode is a perfect description! |
I have now owned my GAE for about 10 months and it has gotten plenty of play time. I generally play it more often than my Sp10 mk3 as I save the MC Anna's stylus life for hard-core listening sessions whereas it's far less expensive in the long run to listen to my 103R for non-critical sessions or background music and for less than pristine pressings :)
I have a habit of every 3-6 months reverting back to a former configuration to make sure what I thought I heard previously is in fact what I'm hearing now (I do this for my whole listening chain) I did this with the GAE regarding the "auto" vs "manual" mode. I went back to auto mode about 3 months ago. I was shocked at how much better it was. I have some original recordings of the deck in auto and manual mode during its break-in period and I can tell you without a doubt it sounded far better in manual mode when the unit was newly arrived.
So what changed? Obviously I can't definitively answer that, however, I can speculate. The bearing would have run in and it is possible that the electronic mechanism that this table has to quell vibrations is not working nearly as hard, perhaps translating to a more airy languid and relaxed sound, i.e. It no longer sounds like a good (but not exceptional dac) when in auto mode.
I went back and forth many times and sure enough, once run-in I am firmly on the "auto-mode" side of the fence now, but when the table was new? No way!!!
Based on what I could glean from Mr. Fremers review of this table, he had it in his possession for some time. Perhaps his unit was fully run-in when he attempted the comparison between manual and auto mode, I don't know but that would explain at least to me why he preferred auto-mode.
I can still hear a sizable delta between auto and manual mode it's just that the advantage now goes to auto-mode.
My my advice is run the thing in manual mode until you get about a 500 to a 1000 hours on the bearing and then start switching and comparing the playback modes. You may be surprised; I was literally SHOCKED and for a minute didn't believe my own ears.
Bearings in turntable are immensely important! I look at it like new rings on a piston seating themselves along the cylinder walls of an auto engine :)
I would like to hear from some owners who have some mileage, figuratively writing, on their SL-1200 G or GAE. |
atmasphere:
May I inquire if you actually drilled into the top 10mil aluminum plate in order to mount that arm? |
I see. I noted that this is a 'G' and not a "GAE" so some of the shock I initially felt subsided LOL |
The SL 1200 G/GAE is is every bit as good as I and others have stated. It is far beyond anything I've heard from VPI although I've not heard the VPI DD. Much as I love my Kuzma 4 Point and I'm buying an Airline I prefer the GAE to the Xl DC which I had a nice session with.
The TW's sound dark to me but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Different systems, different likes. I'm not saying that it's as good as a Caliburn although I have no idea why Mr. Fremer would choose that messed up record with a collection so vast. I definitely could hear the superior timeline of the GAE and I could definitely hear the superior decay and body of the Caliburn. Like I've written before, remove that horrible rubber mat and the GAE takes on a whole new character for the better.
The stock mat is horrid and sucks life and light from the sound.
I have a buddy with a +20k TT and a Triplanar with a very expensive cartridge and it will not touch the GAE for corporeal real-ness. The turntable belonging to my friend is a DD and so the timing is nearly perfect as is the GAE.
Again, it sounds like my SP10mk 3 NG only less grand. Like a Steinway Parlor Grand compared to a Concert Grand.
i did recently have a $10k phono stage which was superb connected to the GAE. It is the third best stage I've heard. I didn't buy it because in the end, although I absolutely loved the aesthetic, it was bested to my and my gf's ears by the iPhono 2 + linear PS. Now, it was close enough that I could very very easily see the choice coming down to personal taste. |
blouse:
if you have a warm and/or lush sounding phonostage or overall system sound, try removing the mat and placing the record directly on the brass platter. If you have a neutral to just shy of neutral try an acrylic mat. I am using a mat I received from Chris Thornton which is acrylic. I was the guinea pig for this mat. contact Chris at Artisan Fidelity or find another acrylic mat.
obviously mats are very important and can make or break a system. The stock silicon feet are warm sounding and lean towards a bit of lushness. I experimented with different combinations until I arrived at a balance which I loved.
The one one thing I can tell you is that I've never had a combination where the stock mat didn't absolutely destroy the sound and that goes for the original stock rubber mat which came with my SP10 mk3, I use a custom copper mat which I purchased from Artisan Fidelity.
The copper mat mat does NOT work on the GAE! It was immediately evident that this was a bad combo but to Technics credit I believe the manual states that if you use a record weight or such the mass should under a certain amount (would have to refer to he manual again) and my copper mat did exceed the recommended weight limit.
I think it was Mr. Fremer who recommended the Holger Stein mat. I may try that mat one day.
I for one do not use clamps or weights. Everyone I've tried has shut the music down on both of my tables.
That table and arm will tell you Everything with regards to the sound based on your decisions, it is very very revealing.
I can clearly hear the differences between feet, mats and head shells.
Experiment and listen deeply into the music. I find small ensembles with accompanying vocals to be some of the best music to hear these types of changes. |
moonglum:
the tone of your post seems adversarial, but I could be wrong. I will try to address yours questions/points succinctly.
Audiofun, for the record, let me get this straight. You are asserting that your 1200GAE “is FAR BEYOND anything VPI have ever produced” except the one you haven’t heard? No. I clearly wrote "It is far beyond anything I've heard from VPI although I've not heard the VPI DD".
Isn’t that a tad disrespectful? As your quote is misrepresentative (innacurate) of what I had actually posted I view this question as non relevant to my post.
If things really are as bad as you describe you need to have a word with the manufacturer as a matter of urgency! ;^)
I needn't have a word with Matsushita. Urgency on what scale? People starving, or needing housing? It's a $4k record player. It's a toy I use it to enjoy my evenings and relax after work. It is not urgent to me. I remedied the situation by tuning it to my ears as most people do with their gear no matter the cost. If I were to follow your line of reasoning, by now I would have contacted nearly every manufacturer of audio equipment I've owned throughout the years to chide them over the crappy power cords they send with their respective products. As it stands, most manufacturers will inform you that they include a standard P.C. for the sake of convenience, knowing that if they installed a high-end P.C. it would drive up the cost and most people would still most likely choose their own flavor of P.C.
You can’t both be right?!?! ;^)
(Well, in reality, you can because it's an arbitrary choice) You answered your own question.
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Chakster:
that mat looks gorgeous! I need to polish mine :) now that I've viewed your picture. |
On the contrary :) I have a very good sense of humor, at least my mom thinks I do :) my girl friend, not so much all the time, especially when I try to justify why buying another piece of expensive gear is a smart financial move :)
I take you at your word, no harm no foul. I really just wanted to make sure my words were quoted correctly.
You mention ion you have a 1200, it it a SL 1200 mk X or one of the newer generation SL 1200's (GAE, G or GR). Their is a world of difference between the prior generation of SL 1200's and the new twin rotor core-less design (the GR is a single rotor core-less design)
i do realize there is not right answer regarding your choice as it is just that, your choice and preference.
Listening to Stevie R. Vaughn on 200g/45 on the GAE as I type this, good times! |
Now I've misread you. It appears you were making the point that if someone owns both tables..,etc. i see that you were positing a hypothetcial scenario, my bad. |
Yes, I use Weiman Silver Wipes, works great with copper. There is another, I'll get the name and let you know. |
brf:
HA!!! You read my thoughts. |
pani:
They (GAE and G) are the same table sans the anniversary-badge and a different formulation for the silicon feet in the GAE.
The GR is the table that Technics made some concessions with in order to make it affordable to a wider audience. |
waltersalas:
That is because the GAE was a limited edition version with only 1200 units made available worldwide.
The G version is the generally available version of this table and it is the USD$4K price was originally set for this variant of the table. Technics decided to price the GAE at the same price as the G as a sort of added bonus for those who signed up early. Basically Technics did not upcharge for the GAE badging or differentiated silicone formulation in the feet of the turntable.
Essentially if you purchase a G, you will have the same TT that I have on my rack minus the badge and with a slight difference to the mechanical nature of the feet (i.e. silicone formula).
Like all things you can find a GAE on ebay; for a price that is. |
Dougolsen:
Hi Doug. If I may humbly suggest a couple of things. Before you go to the expense of an arm to negate an artifact of which the root cause does not seem to be the arm, you may want to investigate a few other avenues. I have found (over the year and 2+ months I've owned this deck) that two factors can cause brightness and a sort so sterility.
if the bearing has less than a SOLID 700 hours of time on it, the deck (or I should more correctly state, my deck) sounds a bit out of sorts, a-musical if you will while in automatic mode. The unit displays a sort of colder non-continuousness. I know this non-continuousness is not intrinsic to the table. I ran my unit in manual torque setting mode at 20% of full power and that sounded great. Once I had logged the aforementioned hours, the auto mode trumped manual mode significantly.
The other culprit is the switch mode power supply. That supply absolutely introduces a sterility and life robbing attribute to the sound. One way to test this is to play another source with breathy remain vocals. Try Eva Cassidy "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" from another source if you have it (the music is just a suggestion which I know easily demonstrates how bad the supply denigrates the sound). First listen to about 45 seconds of Eva with the GAE powered up, next unplug the GAE (it is NOT enough to turn it off as it is essentially still on simply in low power mode) and play the same 45 seconds of music (beginning of the track). You should hear a startling difference in presentation.
Solutions: I know of three ways to mitigate the unfortunate effects of the SMPS. 1. Have a LPS replace the crappy internal SMPS (this is what I'm in the process of doing). 2. Get a really long extension cord and connect the GAE as far away from your other components as possible. 3. Utilize Blue Cirlces line of filters designed specifically for the problems of virulent SMPS noise. Gilbert's products (some of them are units which you simply plug in next to your system, they have no inlets) really really work and are the ONLY devices I've found so far to significantly negate the problems of SMPS's.
Using the Blue Cirlce filters along with a longer cord and a PS Audio P5 on my source components along with the midrange and tweeter amplifiers has gone a long long way to quell the nasties of the power supply.
My regulated LPS supply is still in the design/build stage.
i hope this helps. Economical solution? get a long extension cord and one of Gilbert's less expensive filters, plug the TT in as far away from your stereo as possible and then plug the Blue Circle filter in right next to the extension cord (at the outlet).
I promis you that a tonearm swap will not absolve you of the problems of a SMPS, it may sound different but the table will still be its own worse enemy.
That supply is the one weakness in an overall brilliant design. Unfortunately they have chosen to repeat this error in the upcoming SP10-R.
Hope this helps. |
I intended to write "breathy female vocals". |
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dougolsen:
"Do you recommend running in manual until 700 hours is reached and will this help reduce the brightness I object too?" I do recommend running it in manual mode for the first 700 hours.
"How do you know when you have reduced torque down to 20%?" Count the number of turns lock to lock (be gentle, it is a small pot) and then turn it 1/5 the way up from the lowest setting.
While I definitely know that the unit can sound a bit out of sorts in auto mode until the bearing is run-in I am not so sure if the brightness you are referring to is the same thing I am referring to. I did note a tilting up of the sound of my system but ALL SMPS's have this affect on my system.
Simply put this is one of the best tables I have ever heard bar none, is my SP10 MK3 better, well yes but I have a $9K cart on a $7K arm feeding a $13K phono stage on a $10K rack (in fairness the GAE is on a rack of equal cost), not to mention an Artisan Fidelity Modification to make it a NG (currently undergoing the upgrade to NGS) ~180 pound table. The real question is how does it compare? Very well indeed, in no way is my GAE/103R(or London Ref)/iPhono2 embarrassed by its big brother. My system so far ranks as follows (going in ascending order of goodness), digital (AMR DP-777SE, GAE+iPhono 2 with LPS, SP10 MK3 NG + AMR PH 77, Custome built (by Soren Wittrup) Tascam 42BR R2R).
All of them sound excellent and the GAE is very very good, it simply can be made to sound better. I still say its FAR better than most of the MDF rubber band driven junk out there being marketed for crazy money.
I don't want to start a thing about the Krebs mod which many know I do not believe in or support. I will just say this, if you know of anyone who has had it performed some years ago, try to look at the interior of the unit where the linseed oil was applied and see what it looks and smells like now. All I am saying is look for yourself and if you are fine with this in your TT, then go for it.
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Ok, wait... If I am brutally honest, YES the SP10 MK3 (NG)/AMR system does embarrass the GAE on the Royal Ballet LP :) but I suspect it would do this to a lot of tables in all price categories.
That album sounds great on the GAE, on the NG, it sounds SCARY REAL!!! |
For the record I am not lumping ALL belt drives in my comment about "MDF rubber band driven junk" I am referring to true "MDF rubber band driven junk" :)
Obviously their are some fabulous belt drive systems out there, I personally would like to own and play with some of the big Micro Seikis (SX-8000 II). |
lesm:
I believe you and I'm glad it was a mod you are pleased with. The greyness that most people speak of is mostly caused by the chassis of the mk2 and mk3. A great deal of this greyness can be removed by seating the motor unit in a plinth such as Albert Porters beautiful plinths.
The best results are achieved by completely removing the motor unit (mk2 & 3) from their aluminum housing and fixing them directly to a plinth a-la Steve Dobbins or Artisan Fidelity.
I can attest that the GAE has no greyness to speak of, at least my ears don't perceive that trait.
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lewm:
sorry about incorrectly entering your moniker, my iPad likes to try to think for me :) plus I need my readers LOL!!! |
chakster:
your table always appealed to me and I thought about experimenting with it. It looks so cool and like you've stated, has some nice solid engineering behind its design.
I'd love to hear that piece one day. As it stands, I think I'm going to stop at 2 tables and 3 arms. Was thinking of getting the SP10R but honestly I can't make a case for it (yet :).
2 tables and a R2R is realistically enough :) |
I agree with Atmasphere, I've not found this table to be bright in audiophile parlance. Fact is, the table is not bright. I have used it with multiple phono stages and brightness is not a trait that I perceive. The tilting up of sound I referred to is solely due to the introduction of the SMPS.
Comparing the same records played on this table (for instance, Jacintha "Here's to Ben" or "Jacintha is her Name") to the same music in digital format , R2R (I have of the Jacinthat Groove Note R2R selections) and the 45's played on my SP10 mk3 I feel confident in my statement that if some are experiencing brightness, it MAY warrant a look lsewhere in your chain.
Try plugging the table in further away from your system with a long extension cord to determine if the your system is experiencing a very adverse reaction to the SMPS.
My Sony PS3, plasma tv, router, anything with a SMPS has this exact same effect, some are much worse. The power supply in the Sony PS3 is one of the worse I've encountered. I literally have the aforementioned devices plugged in to a Monster power bar on switched outlets so that with a foot tap I can perform a hard disconnect from the wall during my listening sessions.
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chakster:
thanks for for the link. I knew that thing sounded special before I saw what they were working with :) the ART 1000 which I'm supposed to be auditioning and the Phasemation 1000 (which I now want to audition :).
i liked what I heard even over the net on uTube. |
cleeds:
The way I am envisioning this, in order to be analogous to a tonearm, the participants would have to be directly across from each other walking up the stairs in the same plane. If they were situated the way people actually carry a couch up a stair case (one at the top one at the bottom) I do not see an analogy in the mechanical assembly of a tone-arm. The bearings in the tonearm are not located front to back. What am I missing? Oh well, LOL its fine. |
Ralph:
In your sofa analogy, where are the persons who are supposed to represent the bearings positioned? I am trying to picture this analogy and it is not working in my head LOL (maybe its my head :). If they're both facing each other along the long sides of the sofa in order to imitate the arm/bearing in the horizontal plane, they would both experience the same weight. If they are at the ends of the sofa, I don't see the similarity with a tonearm bearing in the horizontal or vertical plane.
Also, I have played, in direct comparison the Technics with albums that I also happen to have on tape (R2R Safety Master Copy) and I will state that in my system the bass sounds dead on. There are no aberrations which stand out. I have compared Café Blue (15ips and 33.3), Jacintha is Her Name (15ips and 45) and Here's to Ben (15ips and 45). I have also done this with CD. Café Blue is a digital recording, 16bit 48khz if I recall correctly.
Note that I did not state the Lp and the tape sound identical.
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cleeds:
I think tzh21y was conveying that tone-are wire leads are an area where many people experiment in order to affect better sound. Not that they are continually changing the wires due to some type of problem. It's a less drastic way to experiment in order to possibly taylor the sound to ones liking.
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tzh21y: I have the GAE and my experience is that the arm sounds great. I actually look at it as a freebie considering the low cost of the G/GAE (low compared to the other low-tech MDF TT’s being pushed on the unsuspecting public; many times at much higher prices) tables. The arm sounds fantastic. I have heard the Triplanar on at least two Monaco TT rigs (very expensive systems) and both struggled to achieve great sound. I would say they eventually achieved good sound but certainly nothing to write home about. Granted, those are specific cases and I have NOT heard the G/GAE with a Triplanar. I probably wont as I am not a fan of that arm. I can tell you that headshells make a big difference and one of the first things I would suggest is replacing the stock Technics headshell for a big jump in performance (and the mat has to go). I bought the LP Gear Zupreme and the Audio-Technica AT-LH18/0CC. I use the LP Gear Zupreme with one of my Denon 103R’s. The AT is awaiting the arrival of the ART 1000 Direct Power MC to arrive. |
cleeds:
Thanks, I'll do that. |
