Ralph,
You know very well we are talking about electronics here......of course, certain measurements of speakers are very important.
For electronics.....preamps...amps....DACs.....and for all passive components,, tweaking and execution (like damping and shielding and grounding, etc.).....please show me the double blind listening test results.....come on.....do it.....you cannot....because it has never been done. The only double blind tests that were ever done showed that people cannot hear anything in a double blind test........so show me the results of phase shift of an amp....or .001 versus .1 percent distortion.....or more second harmonic distortion and less upper harmonics or anything for that matter....It has never been done. With electronics, passive components and execution.......there has never been a double blind test done......please show me....make me wrong. I am sure you will find a doulble blind test that was inconclusive.......but actually shows something?.........come on.....no talk now......lets see the tests.
I never said that numbers and science and engineering do not matter........but that measured distortion numbers and signal to noise, etc.....have any correlation to sound?......show me. show me the test results that prove it.
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Mike,
Come over to my house and bring your best open hearted love, open mind and bliss and I will show you how to do listening tests to various subtle things that improve the sound of equipment. Don't need no alcohol to get high/low.......we are already infinite joy and bliss......live it now.....it is way more fun than being right.....way more fun....way more fun....way more fun....way more fun.....
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So what in the Purifi module makes it have less hysteresis distortion? The NC500 and the Purifi use the same FERRITE core coils.....and the Purifi have STEEL leads on their output caps. What Bruno claims is that there is so much feedback around the coil that it "gets rid" of the ferrite/steel sound. The Purifi has even more feedback than the NC500. What do you think, oh all knowing one?
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I did my homework......in fact, the article you refer to was a retort to an email I sent him. He claims his super feedback gets rid of hyteresis and to prove it he created some test that proves nothing (except a measurement). What do you think?....instead of quoting him.....since he says basically nothing. BTW even all ferrite core coils sound different from each other. If you made the very coil he uses out of purer wire it would sound better.....if you cryoed it....it would sound better. If you use a toroid coil instead of an incased coil it would sound different. So, what is the best? Did you do extensive listening tests to coils to know......or do you believe all coils sound the same? I told Bruno the only way you would know if you got rid of the hysteresis in a ferrite coil would be to A/B his coil with an air core coil and listen. This is how you know somethng.....by actual listening tests......not by a made up measurement test that has no basis in sound quality.
This game is so much more complicated than a simple measurement or a guess. You have to listen to everything you do......to really know if what you "think"...is what is "real"....and what is real in audio.....is what sounds most transparent.....and only the ear can judge that.
It is the peak of stupidity to think that you cannot swap a few parts and improve something Bruno designed. If Bruno listened to everything he did and was all knowing.....then maybe not. He does not listen to everything he does and is not all knowing. It is stupid to think otherwise.
Obviously, you "only Bruno is God" worshippers think as you do. I think everyone is God.....so I worship everyone. Every thing and every person contributes to the whole. All souls are pure and lovely.....knowledge is vast and infinite....no one person can hold it all. We need each other......Tweakers need engineers....Engineers need tweakers. We are one....most holy ones.
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So now we are down to my module is better than yours......what are we...children on a playground? "my dady can beat up your dady" What i am always saying....is that there is more. always more. If you gave me your Frankenstein front end circuit....I could mod it and make it better.....so could a whole host of other people. You do not know everything......no one does. There are tons of people who can improve on what I do. What I do is the result of over 40 years of listening tests and making products and modifications. However, it is but a grain of sand in the knowledge of all things audio......plenty of people know more than me......plenty.......but, my overall knowledge is very, very high......and what I do is appreciated by most everyone......I am in service. I love everyone.
The new Purifi module should get delivered in Dec. Warren at VTV has some Beta ones and says they are a noticeable improvment on the baby one. It makes sense....it has more capacitance in the power supply, a larger output coil, more connector pins in parallel for more surface area and lower impedance and has more current capability so will drive lower impedances even better. Even with a simple non low impedance speaker load Warren thinks it just plain sounds more "real" This is a good thing.
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NO, you don't get it. Good sound is good sound. Measurements have no sound. They are just in your head.
We could go on and on......the basic objectivist versus subjectivist game.......I am stopping now......why don't you do likewise.....I am sure that you will want the last word though......have at it......no matter what you do.....eternal love and joy still exists in the now. Please tune into it for all our sakes.
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Blah, Blah, Blah went the "We don’t need to listen to know something" sheep.
You guys are soooooooooooo much fun! Love you.
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Again, you cannot tell you got rid of the hysteresis by measurements. More feedback will lower the distortion number....does not mean there is no longer hysteresis. Is hysteresis even measureable? There is no correlation to any measurement and reduction of AUDIBLE hysteresis. You have to listen to really know something......sorry, just the way it is. NOTHING is self evident from distortion measurements.......except a measurement. There is zero correlation between measurements and the sound of electronics........please, again, i beg you to show me the double blind listening test results that show a correlation between measurements and sound quality.........where are they? In your mind......Its all in your mind. We must listen to know something.
I don’t need his or your respect from your minds opinions. I respect myself. I love myself. I am worthy. What I know is what I experience. I trust my experience and my ears. I am not other directed. I don’t need the praise of someone else....except the real praise that comes from the heart. I love Bruno.....he loves me. What we think in our minds is just thoughts.......usually ego based. The soul just loves. I love you, I love Bruno, you love me....Bruno loves me......this is truth....eternal truth.
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Blessings to Mike, blessings to Kuribo......blessings to everyone....no matter what your opinion is.......remember opinions are like A holes.......everyone......well, you know the rest. What we need to remember is that everyone has a soul. Everyone is beautiful. Please try and see the beauty in each person. In essence.....we are all the same....we all want to love and be loved and to be happy. I wish you all the highest high of the them all.......the LOVE SUPREME.
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Kuribo,
You said what I do is nonsense (has no value)......so I was just posting someones opinion that shows maybe you don’t know the results of what I do and that there just might be fantastic value in what I do. But, of course, you will never see it that way. By the way, I am swamped with work.......that is how valuable people think I am. You are also worthy. Worthy of loving people rather than making them wrong.
By the way, most here do not care about your opinion.....it does not stop you from posting. Who is more boring? Maybe we should have a vote. I vote for love and joy. Now that.....is never boring.
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I wish it were that simple.....that a frequency response measurement means only one thing. However......since everything makes a difference, it is not that simple. Years ago I had a speaker I had designed that had a resistor to pad the tweeter. I was using one of those junk sand resistors. When I tried to use metal film resistors there it sounded too bright and harsh. As I tweaked my system to lower its distortion I could then put the metal film resistor in and enjoy its better transparency without the brightness or harshness (that were actually coming from other parts of my system before and now were eliminated).
If I were to install Silver WBT binding posts, Rhodium plated Furutech AC socket and silver plated OFC wire in Teflon on an LSA amp you would say it is a bright sounding amp.....no matter what the load of the speaker.......because those components have that signature compared to straight wire. And this signature cannot be measured. Same with all audio wires. Some sound dull, some sound neutral and some sound bright (as well as other characteristics......mostly which CANNOT be measured). This is what I am constantly stating.....this game is really infinitely complicated. And to use just measurements is really ignorant.
Do I like the fact that the LSA shows more roll off at lower impedance loads?....no, I don’t.....nor would I design an amp that way for mass production. However, there is a person who might chime in here who has a modded LSA and before that had my modded IceEdge amp which has no roll off using lower impedances. He is using Thiel 3.7 speakers that have very low impedance and he greatly prefers the sound of the LSA amp. Do his speakers sound more rolled off with the LSA so that is why he likes it? This is what a measurement only person would say. Maybe he will chime in with his hearing impressions.
This game is an art. You must match your gear to get the sound you like. It is not an exact science like drag racing where there are just five factors: horsepower, weight, drag, traction and gearing. You can design a dragster on a computer and then put it together and it will perform down the quarter mile exactly as predicted. Audio is infinitely more crazy. Every single thing changes the sound and most things CANNOT me measured that change the sound. You must listen to really know what is real in audio.
Have a beautiful day, my sweet ones.
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More "We can measure the objective performance and studies have shown correlation with those measurements with subjective opinions of "quality".
Again, I politely ask you......Show me the double blind studies that show a measurement of electronics can be shown to correlate with subjective sound. You cannot....because they don't exist. Your whole world is based on a belief structure that has no support.......it is like you are on a limb and sawing.....have a great flight!
We have not invented a measurement tool that can tell us why parts, wires, brands of solder, etc. to infinity and execution make different sound. Of course, these are physical properties. Our measurement tools are very crude compared with our ears ability to hear. This is a fact....one that objectivists just cannot get their minds around. They think our measurement gear is made by God and it is infallible. Just keep sawing.....only gets more fun when you fall.
More "I won't listen, but trust me"......Praise the distortion measurement machine (their God).
God is Love.....not a machine. The music that great machines can make (a great stereo) can move us to feel this God of Love....this God of Joy......I wish you all that feeling.
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I call BS.....show us the studies....you cannot.
We all speak for a poplulation of 1.......this is what this game is. Every man for himself.......praise be those that actually listen for themselves and make up their own mind.
When you listen to parts and execution and swap them......it will be established....in your mind......that they sound different. YOU HAVE TO LISTEN. If you are not willing to listen then you will never learn ANYTHING about sound.
I have told this TRUE story before.......but it is a good one that illustrates the problem. There was this guy who believed that amps sounded different but that wires did not. He had just met a person new to audio and had told him of his opinions. These two were invited over to another audiophiles house that had modified Soundlab electrostats....along with another person (4 people total). When they were there they wanted to do a comparison of two different interconnect cables.......once this started the "non believer" went into the kitchen and stayed until the shootout was over......he could hear their comments while in the kitchen. All three of them (including the newby) all heard significant differences between these two interconnect cables. Then he comes back in the room and says nothing. If he had stayed in the room while they listened and they turn to him and say "well, did you hear what we all heard?" what could he say? If he says yes, then he would have been "WRONG" all those years.....not good for the ego. If he said, he did not hear any differences....then the other 3 would think he cannot hear and he would never get invited to anything again.....also not good for the ego. So, he got to keep his ego intact by putting his head in the sand. So, the question is.......Is your head in the sand? I would think its pretty dark and dim in there. Not much fun.....although you can put down others who listen instead of hide.
Not listening and thinking you know something about sound....well......its pretty stupid. Why don't you keep your eyes closed and then you will know everything about how things look.....right? or wrong? How about not touching things and thinking you know how things feel? We could go on and on.
If you want to worship measurements over sound qualtiy (as heard by the ear)....then fine. But to think this is what most here do? This is stupid. The measurement worshipers are a few very vocal people trying to save us from all those that listen.
Now, we have said the same thing over and over again....haven't we? Shall we keep dancing? I think I will choose another partner. Has been lovely........love yourself and everyone. I love you.
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Yo baby! Top of the morning to ya! What a great measuring amp (PA5)......I cannot wait for someone to send me one to mod.......he he. It's amazing what the Chinese are doing with their cheap DACs, preamps and amps these days......simply amazing.
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I have heard of those researchers and read much of what they did. Again....none of them proved by double blind testing that electronics (or passive parts or execution) sound different because of distortion measurements. Electronics practically all measure flat in frequency response. Even with frequency response: Have you ever had a 20 band equalizer with a 20K setting and moved it down -2db? Do you think you can hear that? Most of us here do not hear above 14K. Of course, if you did 1K we would hear that quite a bit. I am sure that different kinds of measured distortion are audible....like more odd harmonics or whatever. However, there has never been a double blind test that shows this.....or any other test on distorion measurements....please find one. Until they do these tests.....it is all just the subjective opinion of the person doing the change that we here about. Nelson Pass says he hears a difference. I believe him. However, he has no proof.
By the way, Nelson Pass told me that he believes that "What I do works, but he has no interest in it." He likes playing with ciruits and transistors. He does not want to go down the rabbit hole of infinite tweaking. This was a response from him....after I told him I could come to his factory and help him tweak his components. This tweak game is time consuming. He makes plenty of money making products the way he does and is very happy. No problem.....we all have different desires.
Speakers are another story.....the frequency response, polar patterns, waterfall plots, impulse response, time alignment and distortion....all all quite gross and audible....and easily noticed on blind studies. We are talking electronics here. Please show me the study that shows how distortion numbers correlate to sound.
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No, you have not proven anything. Again, if you lower the 20K via an equalizer -2db like I suggested it essentially would mimic the response with a 3 ohm load using the LSA.....please do this and tell us you hear a noticeable difference.
Actually, Nelson’s amps with tweaks would be even more universally loved. A lot of people find them too warm, slightly un dynamic, and rolled off. A friend just sold his XA250 for this reason. This can all be easily fixed via parts and execution. No, I don’t mod heavy amps.
The only common knowledge in audio is that over time enough people have listened to a component that it has a "noted history" of sounding a certain way. My friend used to say...."it all comes out in the wash". There IS NO COMMON knowledge about distortion numbers meaning something in sound.....because there are no tests that prove it....only hand waving from bench testers.
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You guys win....no doubt. Certainly measurements mean everything. So, why are you here on a subjective listening forum? eh? Why not just get a 1975 Pioneer receiver (certainly has low distortion numbers) and a pair of Advent speakers and be done with it. Why would you waste all your precious time trying to convince people that they cannot hear.......or that they cannot believe what they hear? Clearly you guys have a motive for being here. Certainly, you will not convince anyone that your are right......nor will I. The people who listen and decide by listening will keep doing it and the people who decide on what components to buy by specs will keep doing it. Long live us all. I am done this this game. Over and out........at least on this nonsense part of this thread.
By the way, the research paper you linked shows nothing. It is not even about .1 versus .00001 distortion static numbers.....which is what Objectivists worship. It is about adding distortion and clipping on purpose to see how it affects sound. Come on....you can do better than that.....well, actually not, because there are NO tests about different levels of static measured distortion and sound quality. If there were, then you guys would be quoted it all the time.
It will be interesting to see what Timing3435 thinks of the Topping amp versus the Voyager......$350 versus $3000 and better measurements versus tweaky listened to thang. I may buy a Topping myself to use as a back up amp, and of course, mod the crap out of it.
Happy listening.....and happy measuring. It is all good.
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I said you are making things up about what Pass meant when he spoke his truth to me and that you are making things up about the LSA modules. I did not call you a liar about what Pass loves. I had already stated that different types of distortion produce different sounds and that Pass was doing this. What I said was Pass cannot prove anything because he has not done blind testing.......nor does he know how to make an amp transparent (nor does anyone else). Get your facts straight, at least. I have listened to and read what Pass has been doing for years, so know very well his thoughts on various types of distortion and their sounds. Documented on DIYaudio, reviews at 6 moons and his own First Watt pages.
Big fat wet kisses for you too......Love you.
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Its just the facts, as I see it...and read it......and it makes you angry because you HAVE to be right.....so you lash out and call me names. Name calling is usually the last defense of the ego. You don’t need your ego. We are all ready beautiful. You don’t have to defend yourself. There is nothing to defend....the ego is an illusion.....created so we can have some fun. Don’t take it so seriously. Love you. Now I am reallly done.....he he. I will not reply to you again. Have a beautiful life.
BTW, the "off the shelf" modules you talk about were listened to and tweaked over a couple year period by various people in the high end community. Check out Mark Shifter’s comments on this (he was one of the main people). They made it sound the way it does on purpose.....I think they did a very good job. The measurements were secondary to the listening tests. And that is just the way it is. Believe it, or not. he he...
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Please let’s stop trying to be right and get back on subject. Back to listening impressions about this amp.
What is relevant is up to each person (no one person desides on what is relevant here....that would be arrogance). I think a lot of what Cindyment says is made up.....the stuff about Pass and this amp....he just want to think that way.....he does not know, for sure. That is my opinion......but we must stop all this nonsense. There are much more beautiful things to say, feel and be. I think you are all relevant....you are all beautiful. We can agree to disagree....can’t we. Let’s move on.
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Snarky name calling. Again, would you rather be right or Loving? How do you think the majority of people here feel about you? When you point a finger at someone....three are pointing back at you. You only see yourself. Please love yourself more.
I think you should stay.....but I would like you to be loving instead of right.......because you are beautiful.....and I want to put a big fat wet kiss on you.....you are so yummy!
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Wow, you just cannot keep from hammering on me. Nelson is nice, but what he said is real. He respects what I do, but is not interested. How would you know any different from what he spoke. It is arrogant to assume you know something that you don’t. I doubt you have educated anyone. I regret nothing. I love this moment. I speak truth and love. I have nothing to apologize for.....it is arrogant to assume that I do. Throw the hammer away. You don’t need to be better than me. You don’t need to be RIGHT and therefore me WRONG. Would you rather be Right or Loving?......that is the question to ask yourself....every second. We are the same. I am not better than you...you are not better than me.....we are just human beings.....(pretending actually....we are divine light, in reality). Throw the hammer away. Give me some flowers, please. I love you.
I have no doubt that Nelsons findings (which I have know about for years) are probably accurate. However, he does not know how to make an amp transparent. He just likes certain sounds and knows how to make them and then makes the ones people like. Transparency, in all its phases, is much harder to come by. And measurements will only take you so far. In order to know if an amp is transparent you need to do a straight wire bypass test on it (which no one does). You need to put an amp in series with another amp and see if it changes the sound. My friend Sieg was doing this back in the 70s with his wideband solid state amp that beat all amps he ever put it up against for years and years. Every little thing he did to the amp, including all the passive parts, power supples, etc changed the sound of the amp. I got him to bypass his junk binding posts and he was amazed by the difference. It did not measure any different. You cannot get to transparency through numbers alone. All passive parts, all execution, all power supplies, etc. all affect the sound. Many, many high end companies know this and that is why they keep making better stuff. Not because they got the new one to measure better.....they got the new one to sound better because of many small but powerful changes.
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