@stevecham thanks for the positive recommendation for SVS... Just when it seemed that REL was going to be the hands-down favorite. As usual, it's never a simple decision when it comes to audio gear!
@dlcockrum Very interesting info about REL sw's. That does sound like a good match for the Magnepans. And it further complicates my decision in regard to one vs two subwoofers. I guess I can always start with one and add a second later...
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@stevechamWith SVS you have a 45 day in home return for full refund. Thanks for the info. FYI, I don't tend to read private messages. Also, thanks for the info about room modes & issues I might face in solving related issues. I do intend to get an Antimode 8033. |
@hogarthd ...anyone that can point me to a thread about how to tune all the options
beyond just the simple cutoff frequency on the SVS SB16 would be really
appreciated (phase, etc). What I read is that phase is important only if there is more than one sub. Set each sub to the opposite phase. It's not important which is which, as long as each sub is different. If I can find the link to the article I read, I'll post it. It was a good article. Also, check out the Antimode 8033 as recommended by @willemj |
@icanskate - which model PSB sub did you select for your Magnepan 1.7i speakers?
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@bo1972 - I had the impression that SVS and REL are both fast response.
Does anyone else agree that REL and/or SVS are inferior in timing and speed? That's news to me if true...
Thanks
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@jbhiller I’m using a Sumiko S5, which is really a REL T5–as I think the companies are one in the same. That's an interesting option. I'd like to hear some opinions on two of the Sumiko S5 for my room & the Magnepan 1.7i speakers. (I ordered the speakers but I will not have them for a month; built to order.) I do plan to add an Antimode 8033, but I will probably try the subwoofer(s) without it first. |
Here's a subwoofer I haven't seen mentioned in this thread:
B&W DB3D SUBWOOFER
DB Series Dual 8" Powered Subwoofer
Any thoughts on it?
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Review of the Sumiko S.9 https://hometheaterreview.com/sumiko-s9-subwoofer-reviewed/?page=2When you consider the actual improvement it can deliver to an audiophile two-channel system (especially one employing small to mid-sized tower speakers or large bookshelf speakers), how little effort it will take on the listener’s part to gain that improvement, and that it won’t detract from the sound quality of the main system, it’s probably one of the best buys a subwoofer-less audiophile could make... and, Sumiko compared to REL: my experience leads me to suspect
that few, if any, unbiased listeners would express a clear preference
for one of these subs over the other. |
@icanskate PSB subs in my experience have a great synergy with Maggie’s. Which model PSB sub would you recommend with the Magnepan 1.7i's? |
@steve_zettel The SB and PB4000 share the same DSP and app control with the SB and PB16 Ultras -- three parametric eq bands, three presets that can be customized by the user, real time gain adjustment. The only thing they won't do is play a test signal and auto-calibrate themselves, but with the flexibility and control of the app, tuning the SVS subs from the sweet spot without having to get up to make adjustments is a piece of cake. I'm new to this stuff. I found the above paragraph interesting but also a bit confusing. Can anyone help me understand the SVS model hierarchy? It looks like the SB/PB-16 Ultra is at the top -- 16" and 1500W. Is the difference just that the SB is sealed and the PB is ported? Then there are the SB and PB 4000's next in the hierarchy, it seems. I guess they are just a bit smaller (13.5") and less powerful (1200W), but otherwise the same (based on what I read above). Below that are the SB and PC 2000's. How do they differ from the 4000's? Is it just driver size and amp power again? Or do the 2000's lack the DSP and app control mentioned above? Also, what about input options? I can't seem to find any pictures showing input options for most of these subs. I also see a few other models such as the PB12-PLUS. Not sure where they fit in the hierarchy. Are they older? It seems like most here prefer sealed subs for music. Is that correct? I also like the look and the size of the cylindrical SVS subwoofers (such as PC-2000), but it isn't clear how they compare in terms of sound. |
@bunnkmpharmd On
the subject of subwoofers for Maggies, has anyone compared Magnapans
own DWM bass panel to those excellent subwoofers made by other
companies? Even my Magnepan dealer did not recommend the DWM bass panel because (if I understood correctly) it is designed for the smaller Magnepan speakers which do not have a bass section. I was told that it would not add anything to the 3.7i series. I guess it might not add anything to the 1.7i either. For those, you want something more like the options discussed above in this thread. That's my understanding anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong. |
Is the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 recommended with the higher-end SVS subwoofers which have their own DSP?
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Found some answers in this review: http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-loudspeakers/subwoofers/the-svs-sb-2000-subwoofer-review.htmlThere are differences and advantages to sealed and ported designs. According to SVS, "sealed
subwoofers typically have a smaller overall cabinet size and footprint,
allowing easier integration into the listening environment with minimal
visual impact to the décor. A properly designed sealed subwoofer will
typically exhibit less phase rotation, lower group delay, and reduced
ringing in the time domain. These characteristics make the sealed
subwoofer a natural choice for critical music applications, and are
typically described by enthusiasts as sounding tighter and more
articulate, with less perceived overhang.
A sealed subwoofer
naturally has a shallower roll-off slope than a ported subwoofer. SVS
takes this concept one step further by employing sophisticated DSP
equalization to tailor the overall shape of the frequency response and
roll-off slope, in order to take maximum advantage of available ‘room
gain’ so common in small to mid-size rooms. The end result is much
deeper in-room extension than the quasi-anechoic frequency response
would otherwise suggest. With each successively deeper
octave, cone excursion quadruples in a sealed subwoofer in order to
maintain the same sound pressure level. In addition, the equalization
required to tailor and optimize the quasi-anechoic frequency response
consumes amplifier power. As a result, a sealed subwoofer will
typically have considerably lower dynamic output limits <40 Hz than a
larger ported subwoofer in the same family/price range.
In a
ported subwoofer design, a relatively large enclosure size is required
in order to achieve both a deep system tuning frequency, and sufficient
port area to minimize chuffing artifacts at high drive levels. A larger
enclosure also greatly enhances system efficiency in the deeper
octaves, with no need for additional EQ boost to achieve naturally deep
extension.
The result is 2-4X more peak dynamic output in
the 18-36 Hz octave as compared to a sealed subwoofer in the same
family/price range. This makes the larger ported SVS subs a natural
choice for system applications with larger rooms (where less room gain
is present) and IMAX-like playback levels, particularly on demanding
Blu-ray action and sci-fi movies with strong LFE tracks."
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@steve_zettel thanks. I have to say I am leaning toward SVS subwoofers. The Sumiko also look interesting to me. But SVS's 45 day free trial (free shipping both ways) makes it so easy to give them a try first. Unless I learn something new in the next few days, I think I'll order something from SVS.
@axememan suggested the PC-2000. Does anyone else have thoughts on the cylindrical subwoofers. I believe they are ported. But the compact footprint is very attractive to me and would work well in my room.
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@steve_zettel thanks again! I noticed your mention of miniDSP and looked up this page: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-seriesEDIT: The miniDSP products look too complex for me right now. I'm just learning about all this stuff. The Antimode 8033 is really simple to use. ---- Original post: Anyone care to comment on how a product like the miniDSP DDRC-22 compares to the DSpeaker Antimode 8033? I found a couple related forum discussions (in German) which help me understand a bit, but I would appreciate any further advice or recommendations. When should the miniDSP DDRC-22 be considered as an alternative to the Antimode 8033? Here’s a google translation of one: http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-72-5677.htmlthe two options you mentioned are quite different. An antimode AM 2.0 does not make automatic corrections in the entire frequency range, but only up to a maximum of 500 Hz. In the frequency range overlying adjustments to desired target frequency response can only be made manually. A DDRC uses DIRAC and corrects the entire frequency range, allowing arbitrary target frequency responses. In addition, DIRAC can also correct the time response (ie the step response) to compensate for turnouts of turnouts / chassis. Therefore, I would more credibly trust the DIRAC-based solution.
However, the DDRC-88A you mentioned is an 8-channel analogue solution. If I understand your description correctly, but you would calibrate only the fronts, ie you would einschleifen the DSP between the switch box and the power amplifiers. Then you only need an analog stereo DSP such as a DDRC-22A. The other discussion: http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-35-69208.html |
@axememan Yes, I think that's what I'll do -- get two of the SVS PC-2000 subs. :-)
My immediate concern with any SVS speakers is how I will connect them since they do not have speaker-level inputs... I"m sure I can come up with a solution. Currently, I use a 2-channel amp that does not have a sub-out. I connect my sub with its speaker-level connections.
Since I will probably be adding the Antimode 8033, I wouldn't be able to continue using speaker-level inputs on the sub anyway.
Willemj mentioned that I'll need an attenuation cable. However, I have not found where to buy those yet or figured out exactly what I will need... the answer is probably straightforward, but I just need to do the research first. Once I figure that out, I will order the subs.
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@axememan Thanks for the suggestion. The BEHRINGER ULTRA-DI PRO DI800 looks lnteresting.
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I don’t believe you can have speakers too big for any space. Well, I just received the two SVS PC-2000 subs I ordered, and I think they are too big for my space! I might have to send them back and get something smaller. Seriously. I am shocked at how big they are.
How do you control all that sound? ...
Your solution sounds sophisticated and impressive. It will be a while before I have the time to invest in understanding an approach like yours. I admire it, but I need a simpler solution while I continue up the learning curve -- otherwise, I might as well stop listening to music and use my time to go back and earn a degree in electrical engineering. One day I might do that, but for now, I want to take simple steps while I focus mainly on enjoying my music :-) I started this music hobby to shift gears and turn my brain off from work. |
@axememan Have you hooked up your PC-2000 Subs yet?Just curious as to what your
thoughts are on how they mix in with your room?" I have not hooked them up yet... Mini Water heaters" is
what my buddy calls mine..I really Like them tho..Can you put your
bookshelf speakers on top of the Subs?Just to give everything a
whirl? The Port is coming out the back and not the top on those subs. Water heaters, indeed! Honestly, I was shocked by the large size. Unfortunately, they will not fit my room. Looks like I will have to return them and get something smaller. I'm not sure how I missed the fact that they are so large. I guess I focused on the "compact footprint" statement in SVS's description on their website. |
@m-db Thanks for the very helpful info and the product links! I will do the homework :-)
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@a_shah Wow, the reviews on the Hsu VTF 15 MKII subwoofer are very positive. The price is great. I like this suggestion. What is the cost of other components you mentioned (and where would I find them)? 1. Odyssey Kismet Stereo amp custom made for 1.7i by Klaus for two channel listening
2. Don Sach’s DS-2 preamp
Thanks |
@jtucker If you thought the PC-2000 were too big, you'll be shocked by the Hsu, about 5.8 times the physical volume. OK, I better get out my tape measure and do some careful planning. :-) I see the e nclosure dimensions for the Hsu are 24" H x 18" W x 26" D. That is pretty big -- about 11200 cubic inches of volume.
The PC-2000 are 34" (H) 16.6" (W) 16.6" (D) . It's the height of these that makes them imposing in my room. Although their volume is a bit smaller, they still actually take up around 9400 cubic inches of room space, in my opinion, being that rooms and furniture are generally angular.
Now that I realize this limitation, which are the smallest of the recommended subs?
The B&W PV1D is only 13.5" x 10.6" x 14.1". Is that the smallest of the highly recommended subs? I do believe I have room for two of those as long as they can be close to a wall or corner.
I will also look creatively to see if I have room for one VTF 15 MKII in a corner.
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Any thoughts on the Hsu VTF-1 MK3 Subwoofer? It appears to be their smallest.
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I'm not yet ready to buy used equipment. I don't know enough. I'm going to buy new so I can return the item if I make a buying mistake.
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I tried a REL subwoofer and I was not happy with it at all. After trying a couple other options, I am now trying two SVS SB-2000 (in limited edition piano white). I think these will be the keepers. They are a good size for my room, look nice, are very affordable and they sound better than the other options I have tried. I think they make my Maggies sound much better.
I have them set at a low volume. I have not done any adjustment for room nodes yet. But already there is a big improvement in the sound of my system.
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Congrats. It’s such a reward when you can get things to mesh! Are you
still liking the SVS? Had time to play with any room nodes? Yes, I am very happy with the SVS SB-2000 and PC-2000. I think those ended up being very good recommendations for me. I have not played around with room nodes yet. It's on my todo list. I recently purchased a pair of SVS SB-12 NSD for another room and I expected them to have similar output to the SB-2000, but they seem much less powerful. |
