Thanks for the reply Pegasus. I enjoy reading your posts. My previous post was a generic example, and specific for only one type of SS situation. Although the specs I mentioned for the amps and speakers in the previous post are common in today's audiophile market place. Something stood out to me in what you said and if I may make one more point here. And which design optimisation has to take places with which compromises to reach the intended goal. It has been my personal experience over the years, that in talking with about 1/2 dozen or so amplifier manufacturers and doing research on them; I discovered that they each had a target speaker design (brand and/or model) that their amplifier was based around. They have to after all hook up their amps to something right ? Amplifier makers are forthcoming usually on what speakers they are using for current testing. Likewise for speaker makers on the amps they use. Those looking for answers should give them a call directly. With this method business partner relationships are also discovered. There are a few rules (guidelines) in audio. The rules that revolve around the speakers themselves, have a big effect on the amplifier design. For example if we put our experiences aside and, come into this as if we were new to the hobby. Consider these three questions. Consider each as a separate consideration onto itself. A sort of silo. 1) What if a person wants to reproduce full range music. What majority would not want this ? To hear all that was recorded. 2) What if a person wants good efficiency - again who doesn't really want this...no different than installing a furnace/air conditioner ? We check off the high efficiency box if we can. This also leads to lower utility bills, saving the planet, just make sense... 3) What if the person wants the reproducers "speakers" to take up a small area - un-obtrusive. Bookshelf size - Again if you could why not ? Who really wants 8 foot towers in their living room? Or those huge speakers that need to be disguised as huge sculptures in the dwelling to work - really ? Well you can only have two of the three above. If someone doesn't believe it; run through the math and the scenarios of the 3 options. If a friend asks me today for an opinion, and I know he has not already been made biased by reviews, dealers, forums, etc... I will say take your pick of the two that most appeal to you. Then look at the one that got left out. Whichever one it is - go the opposite to it in design - and if you can accept that, you're done. Your path is clear. Go find that speaker ! All choices in between are a compromise - Leading back to Pegasus' quote above. To me the speaker is the Alpha over the amplifier. This also explains my speaker problem (multiple pairs). I see an amplifier/s as nothing more than a mechanical device that needs to gets the job done and does not break down over time. The amplifier needs to serve the speaker and allow it to make music. The order of my points above do happen to show my personal order choice. My full range speakers are 93db, and can make nice music with a small tube amp. But they are also kinda big. Pegasus - It's BTW a question too, how desirable a wide bandwidth is for a power transformer, which is an inherent property of the general winding technique of toroidals. @Pegasus - my personal midrange reference speakers are unique for 2015. This is because they have a design from 1957 - which is older than me. They do not follow the above rules I posted. They are fairly large, not full range, and their efficiency ? The speakers need 30 + ohms from an amp....in order to do the proper bass and as you can see from the graph, 2-3-4 ohms for proper high frequencies. How is that for bandwidth requirement ? Through research and empirical means I have already found a perfect tube amp for them, for my room. Pegasus et al I don't think a SS amp exists that can serve them properly ? Again through empirical means the SS ones I have tried seem to choke - become so pooped out on the 30+ ohm load reqt for bass - that they seem to have nothing left to give at the requirement needed to reproduce the high frequencies. This leads to the band-aid - external tweeter. ************************************************ Audio Hangman - The Big Rocks -----------------------Room------------------------------ ---------------------/-------------------------------------- -------------------/---------------------------------------- ---------------Speakers ---Source--------------------- ----------------/------------------\------------------------ ---------------/--------------------\----------------------- ---------Amplifier--<<<-----Pre-Amp/Phono------ ------------------------------------------------------------- I sure hope this neat doodling feature is not taken away away when the new Audiogon forums go live in two weeks. An editing feature once post goes in would help though. Sorry for any mistakes. My previous post that said Impressive thought process ! (Should have read - Impressive thought process Frogman!) |
- Ct 0517: The funny thing with ESLs, Quad etc. is that they do much better with something closer to a current source, this means they deliver much more voltage on high impedance than a low one. Doubling the power in each halving of impedance is the definition of a perfect voltage source. A voltage source gets tricked out on the voltage increase needed for the bass impedances (except if one uses insanely powerful amps). And it delivers the current in the highs (doubling, doubling, doubling the power) like a preussian soldier by executing it's order - but there is an intrinsic stress in that, of which thermal stress is not the least.
There were some highly regarded german SS amps that worked as a current source. It's a pity I never heard one or could try one.
So you listen on Quad ESL 57? |
So you listen on Quad ESL 57? Yes. in Room B Room A is using Matrix 800 speakers. Room A is my main room since '94 with my main turntable. The pic is from recent discussions on my system thread of successfully integrating the sub nearfield with the Quad 57. I am very excited about this :^) The arrows point to sub locations I have tried. More pictures of both rooms with equipment lists can be seen if you click on my system link. My wife does not share my audio passion but she recognizes the audio problem, so she lets me use the basement. :^) Dedicated space (The Room) is very important for optimizing music. But what is more important long term, and what can not be see by pictures is how the dedicated space can keep your marriage together in a case like this. Well so far...lol...How do you put a value on that ? I guess it depends o the marriage. Word on the street....married guys are in general a happier lot......they are just more willing to die :^) There were some highly regarded german SS amps that worked as a current source. This is interesting. I would of been very interested to hear them if they were available here. After SS amps - American, Canadian, Japanese, plus also Quad's own SS plus a couple tube amps; I am using an American tube amplifier - Music Reference RM10. The designer Roger Modjeski designed and built the RM10 for his own Quad 57 speakers. A total new world of listening opened up with this amp/57 combo. For those more interested in this ESL /Amp requirements world, Roger Modjeski does IMO a very good short one page summary here See the first post. A couple good points from the link. Recognize he is pushing his own direct drive amps in the 3rd paragraph.
Roger Modjeski
2. This second class of ESL speakers is multi way using panels of different dimensions and often different voltages to obtain line source dispersion. By adjusting the panel size and shape flat response can be obtained without the need for EQ. All the QUAD speakers do this having much larger area for the bass than the treble. The 57 is a 3 way line source where the 63 is a two way point source. I prefer the 57.
The Quad 57s are only 200 pF and the 63's are low also. In general the ESLs that use full range panels have the highest capacitance and are therefore least efficient. The multi-way ESLs (that means mulit-way in the electrostatics themselves) tend to be low capacitance and much more efficient. The extremes are the QUAD 57 needing 15 watts of drive and the Beveridge needing 1,500. Trumpet music is most demanding. Being a little in disbelief about the 1500 watt number I measured a half amp at 3000 volts. No wonder these speakers can't be driven any other way. The QUAD on the other hand needs the voltage of a 15 watt amplifier (at 16 ohms) but from a 4 ohm tap. In my experience that although the QUAD 22 amp was made to drive the 57 speaker, it was rather rolled off at the top due to the fact that the speaker impedance did fall to about 4 ohms. Not everything QUAD did was exactly as they said, contrary to the rather perfectionist philosophy proposed in the QUAD book.
One nice thing about my direct drive system is that by changing just 2 capacitors in my crossover one can set the brightness of the speaker to his desires either more or less than the standard by as much as 12 dB in either direction. Far more than one would need.
I am using the 8 ohm tap on my RM10. The room is made with the heavy right curtain in the pic, into an irregular 20 x 22 feet (6 x 7 meters). Speakers are 7 feet from the front wall. I am able to do an easy 90 db at the chair + peaks with the RM10 and nearfield sub. I listen around a 80 - 85 average db average. |
- So what is a brand new "Old Stock" base ET2 from 1985 worth ? Here is an original from 1985 New Old Stock Seeing the year 1985 in the ad I got curious. So using an online inflation calculator. It's original new price of $850 in 1985; is just under $1900 US dollars today. He is taking offers :^) If anyone here is one of the ad watchers - good luck Not affiliated with the ad. |
Probably a better deal: hereSold as a 2.0 but there's reason to believe it's a 2.5. How many of these are out there languishing on shelves? |
Big news ET 2’rs. Remember this? http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1366738930.jpgThe "joint" affectionately called the Gooseneck here. It will soon be available for the ET 2.0, 2.5 tonearm as a match up with both Carbon Fiber and Magnesium armtubes. The really big news. The ET2 base that holds up the entire Et2 tonearm is ready now in Aluminum. Please contact Bruce directly if interested. ******************************************** IMO this would not have been possible without the increasing interest in the ET 2.0, 2.5. Air Bearing Tonearm. Some background When I was speaking with Bruce in late October and posted the last ET 2 Yellow Sticky ******* YELLOW STICKY ET 2 THREAD - FACTORY SETTING OF PSI - REGULAR AND HIGH PRESSURE MANIFOLDS ************ https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners?page=30(See the October 31 post on the linked page. This new format no longer allows one to link posts, just pages ) He did mention his plans for this; but wanted me to hold off until the first parts were ready. Very happy to pass this news to you all. |
thanks for the head's up, ct0517. Mine is on its way. I've been wanting to replace mine ever since I bought my arm (used) a few years back. Alas, Bruce had no more to sell. So, this is a most welcome development.
The decision to use aluminum hopefully solves a problem I've had with using my et2: every time I adjust vta, the arm goes out of level and needs to be reset. I conjecture that the cause is the lack of rigidity at the contact point between the base and the two levelng screws. This holds especially for arms that have had their base abused by owners who overtighten the leveling screws and leave indentations in the base.
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Banquo363
I conjecture that the cause is the lack of rigidity at the contact point between the base and the two levelng screws. This holds especially for arms that have had their base abused by owners who overtighten the leveling screws and leave indentations in the base. Yes from my experience The ET2 has three, well four areas that are sensitive to setup abuse by new owners, and those who are not aware of how it works. The one you mention with the base and indentations from the vertical bolts from not being aware of how hard one has screwed those vertical screws down. All leveling should be done after bringing them both up to reset. They should never have to touched again after that. if they do, the base is warped from abuse and/or there is a good possibility a users turntable is going out of level. check there first. Anyway the aluminum base fixes this problem so is welcome. Very excessive force on the Post bolts and VTA block screws being over tightened and even closed. I ask what kind of madman causes something like this to happen ? http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1415022707.jpgThe VTA block rack of teeth have been stripped by using it when the block was shut closed, and the VTA block case itself destroyed but excessive force on the bolts. . A third being tightening the end cap I Beam cap bolt too tight could cause it to crack at the opening . I did this once years ago. A fourth extreme is the gooseneck. Maybe tightened too tight and left on for years. A user when going to remove the armtube, puts incorrect torque in the wrong place and could snap off the cueing lever. |
Here is a picture of Bruce’ new ET 2.0, 2.5 Aluminum Mounting Plate. https://goo.gl/photos/YMrLEFY46Rno5cs6AThere is also a picture of it on my Audiogon system link. unfortunately the new Audiogon format does not allow me to link to it in posts - yet. Mine is on its way. Cheers |
Bruce' new aluminum mounting plate weighs 39 grams on its own.
40 grams with the three spikes.
The original mounting plate 23 grams and 24 grams with spikes.
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If you guys recall, there was mention a while back on this thread that Bruce and his team were going to Africa with the BBC to test the hearing of Elephants using his TRW - 17 Rotary Sub. I've noticed some really cool pictures and footage of the trip to Africa have been uploaded to his rotary woofer website. I've linked them here. Infrasonic interaction with Elephants http://www.rotarywoofer.com/Africa.htmlBruce' team then went with the BBC to Florida to do testing with alligators. Provoking a mating dance from an alligator. http://www.rotarywoofer.com/Gators.htmlRotary Woofer Website http://www.rotarywoofer.com/Happy and safe New Year to everyone. |
Dear ct0517: One critical subject in the sound generated by any subwoofer is that we at home need enough cubic area for the bass soundwave can be in real way developed, if that cubic area does not exist any one can't " hear "/ feel a 5 hz soundwave. We need " hundred of m. to those very low bass sounwafes really be formed.
Yes the ET unit is something really different of what we normal mortal audiophiles know.
Very good links.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hello Raul - Feliz año nuevo and welcome to the thread. If I may make some comments to your post. Rauliruegas
One critical subject in the sound generated by any subwoofer is that we at home need enough cubic area for the bass soundwave can be in real way developed, if that cubic area does not exist any one can't " hear "/ feel a 5 hz soundwave. We need " hundred of m. to those very low bass sounwafes really be formed. Yes, I agree you can't defy physics when it comes to bass especially when someone is making a Subwoofer inside a BOX (enclosure) and placing it in a larger box "the room". One of the latest audiophile darlings. The Gotham by JL Audio reproduces 19hz - 200hz (+-) 3db Dimensions* (H x W x D): 34.13 in. x 21.50 in. x 24.00 in. 867 mm x 546 mm x 610 mm 360 lbs. (163 kg) $12,000 plus $3500 for the crossover. US dollars. Now in regards to this ET Rotary Subwoofer - it is thinking "outside of the box" and it is designed to take over where that JL Audio Gotham stops producing below 20hz. It uses that "extra room in a persons house" meaning , the basement, the attic, side room that the rotary woofer gets installed in - the room, space itself becomes the BOX - the infinite baffle ....the sealed enclosure..... Rauliruegas
Yes the ET unit is something really different of what we normal mortal audiophiles know So who is the customer for this? This rotary woofer is now being used in theme park attractions, concert venues, professional audio applications and research projects. But I think there are also possible clients for this product right here at Audiogon. Any potential customer for a start would need to have $12,000 US dollars for the Rotary Woofer which is similar to the JL Audio Gotham price. But from there an additional $8k -$12k for the design and installation. So approx $20k - $25K US dollars total which includes crossover and external amp. And of course this person (client) has a house with the space available for the installation of the Rotary Woofer to create this infinite baffle. For this, the person gets to hear and feel "the 11hz hertz fundamental frequency from a helicopter rotor, the low frequency rumble of wind, the space of a concert hall or infrasonic information contained in an explosion." taken from the website. Well this client is not me. But let us just imagine; this "guy" male customer (no woman would do such a thing right? ) but .......imagine this guys wife, spouse, better half coming home to see the inside walls of their beloved home doing this. http://www.rotarywoofer.com/africa%20photos/Africa%20Video%20Snapshots/Kombi%20Roof.gifthe above is from the Africa segment linked earlier. I got a good laugh - the video shows outside the van containing the Rotary Woofer working inside the van to attract the Elephants. And from that link's description. "With the rotary woofer playing a thunderstorm recording, the elephants all stopped eating and turned toward the camper van." Cheers |
My 21 year old son sent me a couple links today. I think inspired by his girlfriend..... I started laughing when I opened them up and I thought for a moment, maybe there is some hope for him ? had to post. http://imcedb.com/images/1/12/Indecent_stereo.pnghttp://imcedb.com/images/1/1c/Indecent_turntable.pngIndecent Proposal - Robert Redford - TNT turntable and ET 2.0 My son always liked my old TNT - told me it looked like a tarantula spider. Black is beautiful. When Bruce told me he was going to be making parts in aluminum I thought for a second maybe he was about to add some bling to the ET 2 tonearm in the form of shiny aluminum. But he stayed true to his low key self with the blacked out aluminum mounting plate. ET 2 owners - notice the correct placement of weights for bass in the first link.. Anyone know what the cartridge is in the second link.....a Benz ?
Happy Listening |
Dear ct0517: Yes, I remember the first time that I saw that very good picture and was my wife who took my attention about.
Obviously that tha beautiful house is a house where the owner likes music and know what this means in a home audio system ( I'm talking not of RR but the real owner. ).
IMHO, the ET tonearm is today an icon/sign in the audio history.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hi All
I have just finished testing a precision pressure regulator in the air supply for the arm.
I replaced a Norgren B07-201-A1KG reg with a Norgren 11-818-101
Findings in my rig...,
Was there an improvement? Yes. Things were a little clearer, more three dimensional and impactful.
A big change? No, but worthwhile.
All comparative testing was done when the compressor had cycled off, drawing air from the reservoir only.
The old reg has a built in filter/water seperator the new reg doesn't, so a seperate filter/ seperator was also installed before the new reg. So technically two things were changed.
Did this have an impact on the results?
Maybe
Whatever, the new configuration is staying firmly in place.
The bleed off needle valves before and after the reg, that I posted some time ago, were retained and their beneficial impact confirmed.
It shows all over again that the arm is very sensitive to the quality of the air supply.
Cheers
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RichardKrebs
It shows all over again that the arm is very sensitive to the quality of the air supply. Richard - obvious agreement from me. I got sidetracked for a number of years (elapsed time) in my Audiophile phase PUMP journeys. Where does one stop ? It can be addicting. I did learn a lot about how different pump technologies work though. ******************************************** I think it is worth noting for newer readers, a couple important thread quotes from Bruce on Air Supply and Setting Manifold PSI Values. 1) Air Supply (Quality - PSI and Mositure/Dirt) Bruce Thigpen
More than air pressure, the air supply will change the sound of the tonearm. if it is bad, allowing pressure pulsations to enter the manifold. Increasing pressure slightly and a big enough surge tank are the best things that could be added to the tonearm in terms of performance. The key words to me from Bruce is increase pressure slightly, and it implies one knows what PSI your ET2 manifold was built for. If someone buys an ET2 on the used market we have discussed here how to find out the PSI/Bar it was designed for. As a guideline if a regular manifold - 3 psi. If a High Pressure manifold 8-10 psi unless it was a Custom Build. Once consistent PSI is achieved (think pulsations), the big other factor is moisture and dirt. What helped me understand how important this moisture and dirt were, was to think about air brush painting and what happens if dirt/moisture get in the air line for the person doing the spraying. Now I don't air brush myself but there are many air brush painting forums to get an understanding. For me personally. My Timeter pump is designed for keeping people/patients comfortable. It therefore has controls that allow me to vary the moisture being sent out as it has an integral drying system. The pump is affected by humidity and going from very dry winter air, to humid spring/summer air forces me to make pump adjustments to the level of drying. I have found in my room on a few occasions during the season change from winter to spring (going dry to humid) I could have been listening to digital for a while, then switched to vinyl, the system itself is warmed up; at times the vinyl sounded wrong. Almost how reproduced music in a room can sound with cold solid state gear if you know what I mean. When the music sounds like this, it makes me think of wires and the gear. Not the music at all. Going to the pump I notice the dryness level needle has dropped some so I need to crank up the dryness factor a bit on the pump. So the PSI was just fine but there was some moisture in the air line - it affected the sound. And this is moisture "vapor" that is hard to be trapped by filters. Again the air brush forums help to get an understanding of this. Our audio expectation is nice music we enjoy. Their expectation is the finish on their painted product. Its all visual. For those running with tanks of compressed air - don't forget to drain the water in the tank before using (bringing the tank to its PSI level). My Timeter Aridyne pump is tankless. The fact of the matter is if you live in a hot, humid place (I wish I was there now) you will have more challenges with air supply than the guy in a drier, colder environment. So many environmental factors can affect the sound that are never discussed on Audiophile forums. 2) Setting the Manifold PSI on ET 2.0 and 2.5 for specific customer requirements. In the past customers have had Bruce design the manifold PSI for their pump's specific requirements. This is discussed on the Eminent Technology website when one is looking to buy the tonearm, as the pump system is not supplied with tonearm when you purchase it. Bruce Thigpen
The pressure drop across the set screws define the restoring force and part of the stiffness of the air bearing.
The tolerance between the Manifold Inner Diameter and the Spindle Outer Diameter determines the lifting pressure as a function of flow rate through the set screw. Without a restoring force or pressure drop across the set screw, the bearing will lock up, so you always need a higher air pressure in the manifold housing as compared to the pressure at the surface of the spindle.
The high pressure manifolds have a slightly tighter tolerance between the spindle and manifold, they also use a set screw with more plating to restrict the air flow around the threads to create the increased pressure drop (the difference between the pressure in the manifold housing and the pressure at the surface of the spindle).
It does not hurt to slide the spindle in the manifold bore without air, the resistance you feel may be the surface finish roughness on the hard coat anodizing as well as tolerance.
I hope this helps, thank you very much.
-brucet ************************************************ Fnding the ET2 Yellow Sticky Thread Posts. Here's the ET2 thread Yellow Sticky for the setting of manifold PSI values https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners/post?highlight=et2%2By... The new Audiogon system allows one to find the Yellow Sticky Posts on this ET2 thread easily now. Just enter Yellow Sticky in the forums search field. |
Chris. I can relate to the water in the air comment. Here in Auckland, New Zealand, it gets pretty humid in the summer months. Many years ago I was listening with a few Friends and we all commented on the sound quality being sub par. It was put down to the high humidity pulling down the bias voltage on the stats, a known issue. But then the ET locked up and it began spitting out water. Quite shocking to see this in action. I have used a water separator and drainable tank ever since that night.
cheers .
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But then the ET locked up and it began spitting out water. 8^0 I have known of some people who pull off the air hose at the manifold casing - pour some isopropyl down the tube - reconnect and start up the air. This must be the equivalent of drinking home made Slivovitch. (google it). Anyone reading pls take the manifold apart and clean per the manual if needed. I was lucky with my ET tonearm water incident. I casually looked over and saw the water trap bowl was what looked like 3/4 full ! Normally there is nothing there as the timeter drains all moisture. The nozzle on the drain tube on the timeter pump had plugged up and was not exhausting water any more so water starting going down the airline. Soaking the exhaust nozzle in CLR fixed it. Actually, the same sort of thing happened to my wife’s car. She found the passenger side footwell soaked one day. Turns out pine needles/leaves entered and blocked the AC drain tube on her car - entered from passenger side front windshield area. Dealer wanted to charge me an hours labor to fix it so I took off the footwell carpeting/panel and saw the the drain hose coming through and exiting below the floor. Pulled it out, used wire and blew out debris with air.
high humidity pulling down the bias voltage on the stats, a known issue.
Richard I learned about this about 5 years ago, The Quad 57’s were kept in a Toronto space with no air conditioning / humidity control in summer. The first time I experienced it I thought they were Kaput. I spoke with Ken at Electrostatic Solutions who explained the phenomena to me. They left that space shortly after that and came home. The other interesting thing I learned from Ken going by memory, is that the the Quad 63’s and 57’s are opposite builds. The 57’s are actually a hardy build in comparison to the 63’s in regards to humidity; even though high humidity can make them sound like transistor radios it doesn’t hurt them. The Quad 63’s in a couple years of high humidity will self destruct/fall apart. |
Richard et al, I came across a good video showing the Timeter pump in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzNO_iYeopcWith this one the two air outputs have been set up differently. Not for an air bearing tonearm :^) I found this video while looking for a second pump. The video is really good at showing how loud it is, and its operation. A close up shot of the performance gauge can be seen. It’s the indicator of the air quality going out - Amazon humid - to Arizona dry - depending on the patient’s requirements. In this case Arizona please for the ET 2.5 baby. Baby is a good word I think, since my 19 PSI ET 2.5 from Bruce is younger, tighter, and very picky with what it’s inhaling. More so than my older ET 2.0 with High Pressure Manifold in the other room. If you watch the fellow start it - it builds PSI and when used with my main ET 2.5; pump adjustments can be made so the performance gauge needle stays in the green - indicating dry air output. It uses 4 heavy duty caster wheels which allow for it to be easily moved around when not in use, and placed in the room of your choice when listening to records. It’s not a good idea to leave it running in your wife’s TV room. I want a second one; everything seems to come in two’s for me. But the shipping is too damn much to justify for those I have found. As you know my older Timeter pump has had some past surgery. So would be nice to have a backup. I laughed when the guy in the video showed a close up of the hours count on that one. Cheers . |
***Parts availability announcement***
I was emailing Bruce about the thread size for the air inlet fitting when, in passing, he let me know that newly manufactured aluminum joints are now available. The price will be $225, incl. shipping.
I run mainly MM carts and I've been meaning to acquire an aluminum arm wand (I own the carbon and magnesium wands) to see whether it would better match with my carts. So, I ask Bruce between the alu wand and alu joint which should I get first.
He answers, "I would go with the aluminum joint first, I think this will make the biggest improvement in the low frequency sound with a MM cartridge."
Sold!
I know that contributors to this thread once got together and did a short run on the joint. Perhaps they can discuss the merits of Bruce's assertion?
Incidentally, the air inlet fitting has 10-32l threads (not sure what the 'l' denotes, but I do know that 10-32unf does NOT work) and, like the leaf springs, Bruce offers them for free. This is magnanimous of him especially given that the fitting was impossible for me to find.
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The price will be $225, incl. shipping. How is Bruce able to makes these Joints, aka the "Gooseneck" for this price? Machine shop rates are $150 an hour. We ran into much higher estimate costs to do a run of Goosenecks as discussed on this thread a while back. So the aluminum Mounting Base and Joint/Gooseneck are about the same price. Is the Gooseneck not more of challenge (labor & material wise) to make ? |
Hi there,
I recently acquiref a used VPI TNT MK3 with ET2 arm. It came with Medo VP0140 pump, two filters and an Airtech surge tank.
Since the VP0140 pump is rated for 30mins operation. I planned to get a used Medo 0201 pump and fit a pressure regulator as well. Then I will place the 0201 in an enclosure.
My question is the sequence of hooking these up.
1) Pump->Filter->Regulator->Surge Tank->Arm
Or
2) Pump->Filter->Surge Tank->Regulator->Arm
Which one is correct?
Thanks
Tequila |
Hi Tequila
been up north trying to find HD Satellite 82 through a mess of woods.
talk about frustrating. nothing in Audio so far matches this type of frustration when you don’t have a clear line of sight., and mosquitoes biting at you.
re: VP0140 pump
I still have a couple of those stored away.
For a simple pump the order would be .
Pump =====> surge tank =======> regulator / filter ======== ET 2.0, ET 2.5
This ensures the PSI and Filtering is maintained closest to the tonearm.
If you have gone through this thread you know we are all running different pump systems. For this reason and others when buying a new ET 2.5; it comes with no pump but Bruce will help you acquire one.
Pumps that have adjustable PSI will also have their own internal regulator. So it is possible to have a couple regulators on the line - start and end. A long air line of say 50- 100 feet coiled up also acts like a surge tank and smooths out the air pulses.
Tequila, your moniker brings up Mexico. Anyone buying a used ET2 from Mexico should give the capillaries a thorough cleaning due to air quality. Sonics are greatly affected by quality of the air. if they (capillaries) are partially blocked you will need to run a higher PSI to make it work. This is a band aid and the sonics will suffer. Any used ET2 purchase should be cleaned out.
The quality of the air going into the arm is most important and affects the sonics greatly in two ways.
1) Clean dry air keeps moisture carrying particulates from clogging up the pores of the capillaries.
2) Stable pulse free air ensures great sonics - you will know when you hear this. Music flows like from a water pipe - a relaxed presentation.
fwiw
I used to have a VPI mkIV with my first ET 2.0 many years ago. The springs can be a PITA as they have a tendency to go out of level easy. Replacing the springs with pucks helped, but then you need to introduce different turntable footers.
My 2 cents. hopefully others can offer their opinion. Welcome to the thread and AudioGon.
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Thanks very much for your reply!
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regarding the 30 min operation warning on the Medo.
The pump has heat sinks much like a Solid State Class A/B amp. It does get hot quickly. A small computer fan placed next to it alleviates this limitation. It can be run for hours and never gets hot.
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Hi ct0517,
Thanks for your help! Actually I located in China rather than Mexico although my web name may have given you the wrong impression. :P
I have tried 3 pumps so far
1. Medo VP0140 200V (Directly to the 220V supply) which came with the Turntable and Arm.
2. Medo VP0140 24V (Wired through a 30W 220V-24V transformer)
3. Medo AC0210 115V (Wire through a 50W 220V-110V transformer)
So far I hook it up like Pump->2 Filters-> (Gauge) ->Arm
1. gave me about 2.5PSI at the arm, I ran it for an hour without problem. But 2. and 3. gave me basically no pressure, I have no idea why but they do seem to work perfectly and pump out air. There are a lot of 2nd hand Medo pumps that I can buy here (about 20 to 30USD each), so I just ordered two Medo 0110 (which spec to 14psi) to try, and the shop promise me that they are tested and work well. So I will try and see the results in a few days.
Due to personal reasons (young kids, job, moving locations), I have been away from the audiophile hobby for 7 years and now I am back (I still have close to a thousand records in my closet). Although I have not tuned my system yet but I am happy with the result and I can finally sit down and listen to some music.
Cheers
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And also, I found that actually I bought another used ET2 (without TT) years ago and it was sitting with my LPs, which I forgot, and now I have one running and a spare ET2 too :)
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And also, I found that actually I bought another used ET2 (without TT) years ago and it was sitting with my LPs, which I forgot, and now I have one running and a spare ET2 too :)
what's better than an ET2 ? Two - ET2's :^) One for stereo and one for mono. Happy Listening ..... |
I finally got 2 Medo 0110 pumps to try. Both of them give me about 5psi at the arm. One of the is quieter.
My plan is to build a box for it using MDF and lined with foam. For now this is going to be a closed box with no fan, so it could create some heat issue. But I worry that if I cut out some vents for the cooling (plus adding a PC Fan), the noise would be a bit too much as I need to place it in the living room where I also have the stereo.
Will give it a try coming weeks.
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Hi tequila,
I am using one Medo 910 pump (very loud) and built a silencer box similar to what you describe, except that I used two computer fans ported to/from the outside of the box to cool the pump chamber and built foam labyrinths on either end of the box to pass the forced air in and out to the pump chamber while deadening noise. It is not dead quiet but barely audible when placed in a closet just outside my listening room. The pump still gets hot even with the added forced induction, but stays much cooler than in a sealed box. Hope this is helpful.
Dave
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Fellow ET Two lovers,
What has happened to us? Nothing new to say about this fantastic tonearm? I continue to hear new and amazing sonic revelations with every tweak or, most recently, improvements in my system that show I have not yet heard the full sonic capability of this arm despite many years of audio partnership.
I hate to see this thread fall into oblivion. Miss the "good ole days" of gushing enthusiasm and assaultive debate. Wish I knew how to revive it. Could use some help from the "Founding Fathers"...
Dave |
Hi Dave Sounds like you are really enjoying your setup and music. You know it got me thinking. Some people seeing this thread in the Audiogon Analog list for the first time may be wondering ...... how the hell does an Audiogon thread about a tonearm of all things, reach 1,238,000 views on 1500 posts ? I think this is because. 1) The thread contains good information on the ET2 tonearm from actual owners supported with information that has been got from Bruce Thigpen directly. It dispenses with the many audiophile myths on the tonearm, some from professionals in the business - shame on them :^) .... and with air bearing tonearms in general. 2) There is also good information for audiophiles/music lovers in general. 3) There are good stories. :^) But I think you said it best and it mirrors my experiences. I have not yet heard the full sonic capability of this arm despite many years of audio partnership. As the weather starts turning colder vinyl will be helping me to keep warm. Turntables have come and gone as have cartridges. My ET 2.5 has remained and will continue to do so. My only issue right now is I want a second newer Timeter Arydyne air pump but ...their prices have skyrocketed - is it any coincidence with this thread ? and the dollar exchange as they are all coming from the US is just terrible for Canadians. Can’t justify it. I am reminded of my first email to Mr. Verdier who made my turntable and his email response back to me some years ago. Dear Sir,
Thank you for your message.
A gap of 1cm is absolutely normal.
Can you tell me more about your curious tone arm?
Please accept my best regards.
J.C.VERDIER Many North American audio products are not well known in Europe. :^) Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, You are and always have been the perfect patron/owner of this thread. Totally agree with the points you made re: the overwhelming enthusiasm perpetually demonstrated in this thread and the resulting post count. Who wooda thunk it? Outstanding job, buddy! The point I attempted to articulate the other day was that I easily recall three, four, and sometimes many more helpful, enthusiastic, and occasionally argumentative responses from the ET Two-faithful to a newcomer’s inquiry. It struck me in reading your multiple but lone responses to tequila that we may have hit an engagement lull by our old buddies and friends, myself included. Tequila’s inquiries define the opportunity for us all to share our love for and experiences with this superlative tonearm. Let me lead by example in belatedly offering tequila (and others) any and all help and support that I can, being a long-time owner/lover of a VPI TNT/ET Two rig. This is a great combo IMHO and benefits tremendously from a few simple and inexpensive tweaks that I learned from you and frogman (and others). I tried to dutifully describe my mods in the "My System" section for this purpose: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3778Be sure to click on the easy-to-overlook "Toggle details" button to read my comments. I still humbly acknowledge being on the perpetual learning curve with my analog setup (and my system in general). Best to you as always Chris, Dave |
Dear @dlcockrum : """
or, most recently, improvements in my system that show I have not yet heard the full sonic capability of this arm.... """
I don't know which kind of system improvements you made it but what you experienced can't be attribute for that system audio link name it tonearm. What about the Orpheus that's a great performer that with system improvements always shows it at best conditions.
When we make system improvements and we can listen a better system quality performance that speaks, before any other audio system link, a lot about the quality of the source ( cartridge. ) and speakers and from here we can " figure/imagine " how all the other system links conttribute to it.
Btw, I know very well your speakers, as a fact I like it Thiel, your Classé units and the Krell. I owned the DR-7 and DR 3-VHC and had in my place the Thiel 7 and that Krell too.
I don't know if you already made the REL subs set up for it can works only from 80hz down its capacity low bass frequency where in this set up the Thiel's be running as " satelite " ones.
Anyway, I made my points.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hi Dave
your ET2 set up looks textbook good :^) , with the obvious wiring, air tube connect mods over stock to improve on the original design, which tried to satisfy the tonearm being mounted on practically any turntable - other than a very lightly sprung one. All it needs is one drilled hole for the spiked mounting plate.
As we know and discussed here there are many TNT setups with ET2 arms. The TNT was originally designed for the ET2. There was a business collaboration between Harry and Bruce. Harry then I assume, (he can tell us otherwise if he likes) made up his own tonearm and they said goodbye to each other.
The many TNT and HW 19 VPI/ET2 setups are a reminder of this past relationship and can not be ignored. Even with Harry's marketing sense.
Kind of like that past girlfriend you still hold pictures of, and were afraid to introduce to your mother ? ....
Your attention to detail is great (I imagine for the whole room) and I really like the thread on the TNT. That thread setup on my previous TNT moved the TNT into the same league for pace and tempo with my other tables at the time. But it trumped them in musicality. Trumped them.....hah hah to my American friends. :^)
In fact my modded TNT at the time is what convinced me to eventually acquire the string drive designed turntable.
Nice pics (its unfortunate we can't link pics direct from our virtual system into threads anymore. An excellent shot of how to properly set the weights on the I beam - where many (including the professional reviewers) go wrong IMO because they do not take time to figure out how the arm works. I am referring of course to reading the ET2 manual, or ask Bruce, or ask us here. :^)
in a nutshell **** FWFO**** fewest weights furthest out. I just made up that acronym. This FWFO gives you the highest vertical inertia (aka the BEST BASS) and is discussed in the ET2 manual. This is also "one" of the reasons the super light 420str has such outstanding bass on an ET2. Like the bass players in the group sound after drinking cappuccino.
There is of course the famous Audiogon "German" group who set their ET2's up with the most weight possible in, closest to the air bearing spindle. Long time ET2 owners know what this does to the setup. We can discuss if anyone likes. One from this German group actually makes his own tonearm now.
Cheers
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Hi Raul,
Thanks for the feedback. I am grateful for your helpfulness to me over the years on the MM thread. I still enjoy my Empire 4000D/III in my vintage system, as well as the other MMs I picked up, many of which were recommended by you.
You are correct, the statement you quoted from my earlier post is poorly stated. What I intended to say was that as my system improves, I feel that I can hear more of what the ET can ultimately do, and, perhaps my system has not yet caught up to the sound quality this arm can provide, i.e. it never seems to be the "weak link". Thanks for keeping me straight.
Thanks also for your thoughts on my component selection. Certainly not the visually-flashiest equipment around, but the older, often more-utilitarian looking, but time-proven SOTA pieces from Jim Thiel, Dave Reich, and Charles Hansen always make great sound for me.
Regarding the RELs, I have had them for several years and always set them at the lowest possible crossover point (A1) and at a very conservative volume. The big Thiels don’t need any bass enhancement, but loading the room with the REL’s LF sound pressure seems to improve imaging and openness in my system.
One thing I think is spectacular and unique to REL is the high-level input fed from the system’s amplifier(s) outputs that seems to make the REL mimic the sound of the upstream components, helping it integrate better than most. Wouldn’t mind the slam of the best JL Audio offerings though ;^)
Glad to see you here on the ET thread, Raul. If you don’t still have an ET Two in your stable, why don’t you pick one up so you can join our journey to ET perfection, perhaps sorting through a few of your cartridges to clue us in on the great ones. ET Two’s would suddenly start selling for 3X+ their current price if you become infatuated with it... ;^)
Dave
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Dear @dlcockrum : As I told you, I like your system and know it. Btw, I owned the ET tonearm and as I posted ( somewhere. ) here is a good one. Now, even the Thiel 7s needs active subwoofers. Here you can read the main subject to add a pair of powered subwoofers in true stereo fashion where the main speakers will function as true satelite ones. You must try, that sole change transform for ever and for the better your really nice system: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul,
Before reading your post in the link you supplied, I had already heard and described the "unexpected to me" influences that the dual-REL subs have on my system’s sound, perhaps using somewhat different and less precise descriptives than you do in that post.
Like you say there:
"- better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass "
"- An improvement in the soundstage reproduction in all parameters: deep, front/side location, wide of the stage, etc..."
In my system, I would add something like:
"-an improvement in imaging, air, and a sense of infinite space around the performers and within the soundstage itself"
The other key point you bring to that post is improvement resulting from relieving the main speakers and amplifiers of the difficult lower-octave reproduction challenge. I understand this to imply introducing an external crossover into the signal path of the main system (if I am mistaken, please correct me). I do not yet do this, as it concerns me regarding tampering with Jim Thiel’s ingenius 1st-order crossover and the (extremely) low probability of my feeble speaker design skills bettering Jim’s in this regard. A mental picture of Jim turning over in his grave comes to mind (I assure everyone that I mean absolutely no disrespect or levity to Jim’s passing).
A very good friend of mine has a stratospherically high-performance and high-priced system. He recently wrote me singing the praises of the room-correction software that he acquired with/for his dual JL Audio Gotham subs. He only uses digital sources, asserting that "turntables do add a certain pleasing warmth to the sound, but are ultimately inferior in accurate high-performance sound reproduction". We agree to (strongly) disagree on this for the sake of our continued friendship.
I would think that, with the almost unimaginable capability that today’s computers have to capture, analyze, and process billions (trillions?) of data points that this would indeed be the way to go re: add-on crossovers compared to the analog domain ones I have used (the then-SOTA external crossovers provided with the Apogee Divas I set up and meticulously tuned in my installer days), but I EMPHATICALLY REFUSE TO DIGITIZE MY BELOVED ANALOG SIGNAL SOURCE!!
I submit for your consideration (very Rod Serlingish, don’t you think) that some of the improvements you attribute to implementing additional crossovers are perhaps due more to the magical effect of loading the listening room with gobs of hyper-LF sound pressure that works in effect to "relieve the ROOM of the difficult lower-octave reproduction challenge". This of course assumes (and we know what happens when we do that) that the subject amplifiers and speakers are of sufficient quality to handle the task of accurately reproducing the lower octaves of our musical content (I admit to having an extreme aversion to most organ music so I may be exposed there) .
Dave
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Hi all,
Haven't posted here for a while. I acquired a local China brand air pump (FFYX which made its own air bearing tonearm and turntable), not cheap (around 600 USD), but its super quiet and cool. It provides about 4 psi to my ET2. I think I will stick with this for a little while.
On the other hand, my vinyl system is continuously being tweaked. While I rebuild my ET2, I got the new Aluminum arm base and clamp from Bruce, and also added the VTA dial. Still tuning.
Found a used Bright Star Air Isolation Platform and a custom made sand box for the VPI TNT, and look forward to have its current owner to ship to me.
Cheers
Eric
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Eric et al - I don't know how Bruce makes such good quality parts for what he sells them for. Just glad he is there and his tonearm still a leader in design and execution.
We do know he has his plane. I assume he has made some interesting contacts in the aviation field; maybe this is how he is able to do it.
I tell my kids that education is critical to your success; but in the end its the contacts that will get you there. Wherever you are headed.
On a side note I just remembered something. I spent some time this summer with a few friends helping out a buddy, replace the Gimbal bearing in his boat motor assembly. You know I couldn't help but think about how it worked and making comparisons to gimballed bearing tonearms. I did not mention this to them. :^)
Now there is a great combination - pressed steel, grease, then add a whole bunch of water to it all. Keeps the service repair business humming along.
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Hi Eric,
I have the Bright Star Audio "Big Rock for TNT" sandbox/air bladder combo. After some experimentation, I chose not to use the air bladder in my rig. My house is build on concrete slab and I have the VPI/Firestone air bladders in the TNT corner columns (feet). Your results may be entirely different.
Also, I ended up with my TNT sitting on a corian piece with the corian sitting on top of the edges of the sandbox (not bedded on sand). VPI motor is bedded on sand. You can see pics on my virtual systems page if you wish.
Hard to predict what what will ultimately work best for you. Just experiment with and without air bladder and also creative combos of slabs and placements. Fun, fun! You are in for a treat my friend!
Best to you,
Dave |
Dear @dlcockrum : The main and critical subject to add a pair of self powered subwoofers integrated in true stereo fashion ( this is that the main speakers will function as " satelite " ones. ) is to lower significatively the INTERMODULATION DISTORTION and THD too.
In those all times from where comes your speakers and mine almost no single designer ( as JT. ) was thinking on designs with integrated subs, maybe only ATC was marketing active speakers as a ATC philosophy and not necessary with suibs.
Today the best speakers comes with integrated powered subs ( Vandersteen 7 is one of them but many more out there. ) for that critical subject.
In your speakers those two small woofers ( that can even one 12". ) are handling frequencies from over 100 hz ( first order filter. ) don 20 hz . Are so small that can't really " drive " in the right way bass range from 40 hz and down and this means high distortions but at the same time those drivers are trying to " drive " 25 hz-30hz-40 hz-80 hz- etc and the high excursion of the drivers because the low frecuencies affect e increment a lot the IMD in the whole frequency range of those drivers.
"""
it concerns me regarding tampering with Jim Thiel’s ingenius 1st-order crossover... """
No, you can't do that but only an outstanding overall improvement that you don't have today, you just can't imagine till you do it and listen it. The whole subject is not to reinforce the low bass but put at minimum that elusive IMD/THD in the very hard to handle low bass range, benfits as better quality bass performance is only a side benefit.
Problem in your system are the RELs that has not ( no sense to me. ) a high pass control. Rels are very good as system bass reinforcement but not to really help to have a better quality overall performance.
When I posted the thread in the link I send to you almost no one believe on what I posted there. This already changed today and not only music lovers as all of us but speaker manufacturers that now knows not only about that IMD/THD but that exist no passive drivers that can handle with aplomb the low bass range and not only does not exist but that are not mated with a dedicated amplifier that match the drivers needs in exactly and precise way.
Even speakers as the big Wilson can has a real benefit ( incredible. ) if their woofers been active instead passive.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
@dlcockrum : The external crossover we need to do that could be only for the subs but not use that croosver for the speakers main amplifier where a technician can easily to make the first order high pass down at the amplifier inputs through a cap and resistor combination calculated for a 80 hz high pass filter.
As me you can use a top teflon cap and the best Vishay nude resistor, both extremely transparent. In this way the signal inside your speakers will stay almost untouched.
Why 80 hz or even a little higher as 100 hz instead 50 hz?, because that first order Thiel croosover where the single 8" woofer that handles a frequency range from 50 hz to 400 hz ( I think. ? ) right now is taken frequencies way lower than 50 hz and with higher IMD/THD that if you liberate it.
In the other side your amp will works with lower distress that's mean lower distortions too.
Advantages are many only we just do it. Believe you don't now today the real capacities of your very nice audio system and you will be " surprised " for say the least when you listen it in that configuration.
Regards and enkoy the music,
R. |
Hi Raul,
I trust that you and many others have heard the benefit of eliminating the low frequency signal to the main speakers. The YG Acoustics speakers that my friend has have separate powered woofer sections and also he uses JL Audio Gotham subs. Again, he relies on digital room equalization to make all of this complexity work together and well, according to his reports.
True, the RELs have no high-pass output as they were designed to do something different and that they do well IMO. What sub that you own or have heard has high-enough quality internal crossovers to do this well without introducing other compromises to the sound? I would prefer to handle the high pass/low pass filter this way vs modding the Thiels (which would also not relieve the low-frequency-reproduction challenge for my amplifiers). But then there is the additional long runs of low-level cabling needed to use a sub crossover solution...
Yesterday, I experimented with using my HT processor to alter the low-frequency hand-off between the Thiels and the RELs. Some promising results in the bass, but there was pervasive degradation to every other sound criteria as one would expect from this "mid fi" approach.
Since I cannot afford the latest and (maybe) better-than-what-I-have-now plug-and-play components, I find satisfaction in experimenting with carefully-chosen tweaks and acknowledged "better-than-they-could-possibly-be-for-the-price" components from the past.
Right now I am enjoying power supply upgrades to the SR cables/cords’ active shielding (great results for small $$) and, soon, SR Black fuses (due to arrive Friday). I just picked up a Sony 5400ES SACD/CD player that I may have ModWrighted with improved clock, separate dedicated PS, and tubed output. Claimed to be a "Giant Killer".
Begging the pardon of my ET Two friends (particularly Chris) for this shamefully non-related indulgence.
Thanks as always, Raul, for your contributions and advice,
Dave |
Dear @dlcockrum : I know that the Krell amp is a powerful item but even that and even that works almost all tghe time looking 2 ohms impedance from the Thiels this means more distress and higher distortion that if the amp works at a little higher impedance. That distress could means too more " fatigue " for the amp power suply and output transistors. So, it's not only to think that the amp can make " easy " that work, there are side issues to look for and care.
My suggestion of that tefloncap/nude Vishay resistor at the amp inputs still is a good alternative and inside that first order Thiel filter design. As a fact is the kind of filter that makes less harm to the sound signal.
No one sub I know works in the high pass with first order filter design.
When we are talking of subwoofers for an stereo system dedicated to listen music there is one parameter of critical importance and this is the THD of the subwoofer and in this regards no one is even near the 0.5% of thwe sealed Velodynes thank's that its design monitoring the woofer excursions over 16K times per second to mantain that so lower THD. Nothing can beat it on quality performance. Otehr can go lower or sound more powerful but with loweer quality performance and its croosver design is a decent one.
I own the out of production HGS-15 but you can find out ( second hand ) the DD-15 ( newer model. ) that in my opinion performs better than the DD-18 or in my case HGS-18.
In the other side you can buy a top croosover to hadle the signal from your preamp to the Krell and to the RELs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
The subwoofer phenomena is an interesting one, but logical IMO, as far as progression goes in this Audio business. There are not too many people that have dedicated rooms, that can place full range speakers on the room loading points. So manufacturers followed with subwoofer audiophile lines to meet this demand. It’s a good business model imo.
As we know with subwoofers you can place them in the general area of where you want them, then set when they are active, and amount of db level with the phase control you need. Still the person with the dedicated room will be able to go further down the rabbit hole if these bass modules can be placed on the room loading points to begin with.
The real issues I find with bass does not get much discussion on forums and it deals with the way the music has been engineered to begin with. Different genres of music and even different recordings within the same genre use different compression levels, engineering techniques. Different albums need different bass settings.
Now most people I know with subwoofers have a dial on the actual box/es that they use to set phase and db level, etc... In order to tailor the sound for different music the person needs to get up go to the sub/s and change them. This doesn’t work for me.
In my room B, I am using two Dynaudio BM12s subs that have a credit card sized remote that can be preset for A - B - C - D . Each letter represents different settings. When the music has been engineered with too much bass or too little, the levels are easily adjusted from the listening chair. Unless you can train your dog to change the levels while you listen; this works very well, for me anyway.
Raul - have you ever heard a system that had four bass modules in the room? I am not referring to four on the ground. But Two on the ground. Two up near the ceiling. Four in total facing the listener for two channel music.
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Chris,
Another intelligent and insightful post. The path in the carpet to my subs is worn from countless trips to and from for adjustment or simply turning them on or off depending on the media. From recording to recording I find that the subs either augment or detract from my musical enjoyment and your posit on the variability of mastering decisions, which cannot be altered after the fact, is the best theory that I have read or heard to date.
Additionally, having a dedicated room, I have the freedom to place the subs wherever I like, and have spent many hours trying to tune placement to best effect, yet periodically wonder if the sweet spot is yet to be discovered.
Is it worth it? Depends on one's level of OCD affliction, the subject room/system and, as you describe, the media itself.
Best,
Dave
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Dear @ct0517 : I don't have a dedicated room. I took around one year to my subs position and levels be " just perfect ".
What means " just perfect "?, first that you can't identify where the subs sounds comes, everything ( overall system frequency range. ) comes from in between speakers and extended beyond but sounds emmanate from in between. Second you never need to change the SPL of the subs, simple stay with the final overall set up. If you need to change the subs set up with different LPs then your final set up is not yet final and needs more " work " to achieve that goal.
In my system its position is in front of the main speakers ( satellite ones. ) looking each to other sub not looking to the seat position but at right/left side: front to front. Are not directly seated in the floor/ground but around 40 cms. up and with 30 kg dead weigth in its top plate.
Yes I listened four subs in my system many years ago when I owned too: two Audio-Pro ( Sweden ones. ). As a fact the ideal way to add subs in any audio system is using four subs to eliminate any single standing room waves.
Remember subs main/primary premise is not to have deeper bass or " boom boom " but better quality overall system performance with lower distortions!.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Raul - from personal experience in my room when you have multiple bass drivers, one positioned high near the ceiling and one low - pointed at the listener. The effect of the output from the woofers is that the bass waves cancel each other out. The sound is much smoother, bass notes stop and start quicker. There are no standing waves. It costs a lot to do this type of speaker design, they are tall and substantial for the top woofer to reach high and for the cabinetry to be able to hold the weight. They are very imposing in the room. If a manufacturer makes this type of speaker they are usually their flagship line. Not many made like this anymore . Remember subs main/primary premise is not to have deeper bass or " boom boom " but better quality overall system performance with lower distortions!.
Well the job of the subwoofer is to reproduce low frequencies. In most cases, the bottom two octaves, from 20Hz to ....the higher frequency varies for each persons room. Now I believe in all designs (someone correct me if I am wrong in this assumption) the least distortion for any design, will be when the sub is working the least - IMO. When it is working is triggered by when it has been set to kick on (the frequency), and how loud it has been set to play at when it kicks on. This second part is IMO key (how loud it has been set for), especially if someone is using One subwoofer. let me explain. If anyone owns one subwoofer and you want to learn how clean it can play - lowest distortion try this experiment with one subwoofer. Place it a few feet to the left or the right of your listening position. If it used to be on the other side of the room, change the dial on the phase control 180 degrees to start. Start playing your music; if the sub used to be close to your main speakers on the other side of the room, you will need to turn the db level of the sub down at least 60 - 70%. Set it up for your music. You will not be able to tell that it is next to you. In fact you can play a game with your audio friends. Camouflage the sub with a nice cover. Let your friends sit in your chair, start playing music and ask your friends to tell you where the sub is located. They will point to a far corner somewhere. They will be surprised when you tell them it is 3 feet beside them. try it ... ********** True Story Two weeks ago my 22 year old son comes over with his truck. As it pulls into the driveway, I was able to can hear the vehicle thumping with bass from before he entered the driveway. Fed up I told him we are going to try something. For the record this vehicle comes with decent stock stereo (for car stereo ) I think sourced from Alpine and has a nice big cabin (Room). He has added a JL Audio amp/controls under the passenger seat, and two JL Audio Drivers under the back seat in a long custom box. The first thing I noticed was that his stock sub was still on. Why? It was redundant and competing with the JL Audios. We went to the dash and turned off the vehicles stock sub. I then reached down under the passenger seat where the controls were - I turned the frequency the sub kicked in, a little lower and turned the db level from 6 ! ....to 3. I asked him to play some music. He could not believe it. I can now hear the bass he commented. I felt good but it was short lived. Couple days ago he asked if I could show him how to turn it back the way it was, just so he could learn how to do it. I think its one of these things when guys get together that your vehicle needs to be thumping. :^( |
