A jump back in time to the last days of 2020..
@divertiti asked for directions on how to convert an already finished cable from RCA to XLR.
@grannyring answered in a way that could be an object for discussion. As I’m about to embark on the exact same journey, I would be very pleased, if someone could confirm my understanding on how a Helix Image with XLR termination would be made.
As I understand the layout from the answering of @grannyring there should be 2•18GA for positive +ve and 2•18GA for the negative -ve and a double helix consisting of 2•16GA for ground.
Ratio should be 4-4,5.
Am I on track here with this understanding or have I totally missed out? |
The helix ground on your xlr is never a twisted pair, but always a coiled helix. It is not a huge sonic degrade if you just use one conductor as the helix. However, two sound a tad better.
If using two wires on the helix, then just coil them up side by side on your drill at the same time. Very easy to do. I have been able to uncoil the TFA wire once coiled. Took my time and did a good job of getting it straight again.
I would use a 4-4.5 to 1 ratio on the helix to pin 2&3 conductors if just using one conductor. Hi Steve, Thank you so much for a swift response. The above section is taken from @grannyring answering in more detail at 12-30-2020 1:45pm. Now - upon reading your explanation and recommendation for interconnects, and re-reading the answer from @grannyring I guess you are still aligned. As I now see it, the ratio of 4 - 4,5 is in case you are using only one helix for the ground. If using two helix for ground, ratio should be 3:1. Is this correct? |
Thank you Steve and @grannyring
Everything is clear now and the first double helixes has been coiled by now. Double signal wires will be mounted tomorrow, ratio 3:1.
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Don't forget Gryphon.
These were mentioned earlier in the thread as with regards to speaker cables. I cannot tell whether their power supplies are balanced or not. |
@williewonka - earlier in this thread or maybe on your website I do believe you made some thoughts on using silver as conductor for the helix power cables?
Based on these new findings on interconnects is this an area of interest, you will consider going back to for further investigations?
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Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for a very detailed answer and the additional afterthoughts.
I’m in agreement with you regarding the importance of best conductors for the lowest, most fragile signals, which is also the reason why, I will try out the conversion from UP-OCC Cu to UP-OCC silver on my phono cables to test how it sounds on my setup.
Early in the process I did try the Duelund silver cable, but that proved unsuccessful. Due to the gains in sound quality in general using Neotech solid Cu wire, I will give the silver wire from Neotech a try.
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@williewonka @wig and others
What is the reason behind, besides costs, to only use one helix when using Neotech compared to the recommended two helixes when mil spec is used? The double helix has so far appeared to be the preferable solution following the Schroeder Double Shotgun principle.
When discussing power cords I seem to remember, that one of the prerequisites for the design was, that no power was running on the neutral side, only in the live wire. Hence - from that understanding it comes as quite a (pleasant) surprise, that changing from mil spec to Neotech offers such huge improvements as described here. Does these observations make thinking of the basics behind the power cords to be modified? |
On a different note - regarding interconnects.
The observations found by you, Steve, indicates that there are huge improvements to be expected, if one replaces mil spec with Neotech. I assume your observations are with single ended cables using RCA’s, so that cable will consist of a signal wire and a helix both made by using Neotech. My question is, what are the expectations, when interconnects are balanced using XLR connectors and where Neotech is used for ve+ and ve-. Would you expect differences for the better, if the helix (which is ground on a balanced cable) also was converted to Neotech? |
Steve - thank you so much for elaborating and commenting on your perspectives.
My reason for asking regarding the double helix is, that my very good friend and I are standing at a crossroad. We have all materials at hand for building multiple power cords using Neotech solid core wire as live conductor and cryo mil spec from TFA as double helixes for Neutral plus PE. Based on the newest observations from @wig and you we are unsure, whether we should shift focus and acquire a larger batch of Neotech (either stranded or solid core) for Neutral, and if that Neutral should be a single or double helix. We have concluded that the easiest path when making the helixes is to do all in one go, ie one Neutral plus PE or double Neutral plus PE. Up until now we was of the impression, that only a double helix for Neutral would be the best possible solution, which is why I asked regarding your choices of single helixes, when using Neotech. Hope this makes sense. Any recommendations are highly appreciated.
As to the Neutral conductor in a power cable it makes common sense, that electrons are flowing also in the Neutral conductor. A local electrician informed us, that there could be some signal passing even though, it was supposed to be a firm zero. We have also measured very low output on Neutral deducting from the live conductor for the total voltage difference on hand. |
@aniwolfe
The design outline and construction of power cables we followed when purchasing parts, were those described in this thread:
Neotech in either Air-configuration or with PVC (as we are running 230 V) for Live conductor, double helixes using mil spec for Neutral and a single helix using mil spec for Protective Earth.
We prefer to make the all helixes in one go, ie. all three in this example, as that is far more easy than make one helix at a time and then join afterwards. Hence - the time is now, before we start making helixes, that a change in conductors must be made.
From Steve’s latest reply the recommendation is a single helix for Neutral made of Neotech and then still use the mil spec for PE. The choice for mil spec on PE is my assumption as Steve has not given any direction regarding changes to this conductor. |
@williewonka
If there are benefits to be had using a double helix even with Neotech, then we must consider going with that option.
So far comments from @grannyring and others have been favourable towards the double shotgun principle, which is why I asked questions regarding the return to single helix in the first place, when changing to Neotech. It made us wonder, if the double helix had been skipped or deemed unnecessary when using Neotech.
I also note that you, Steve, recommends the stranded Neotech for making helix. I noted there were some brief comments regarding the solid core wire being too stiff making the cables more or less unsuitable for using between units. We made a trial on one meter of 12 GA solid core, where one was controlling the drill and the other was guiding the wire onto the rod. It was fairly easy to work with the 12 GA in that way, so if the solid core wire is better but impractical in use, then we are only left with stranded Neotech wire as an option for helixes.
Any comments regarding solid core versus stranded for helixes will be highly appreciated.
- Steen |
@aniwolfe
Really?? - I was of the impression, that people on here argued for double shotgun principle on interconnects, power but also on speaker cables...
You are correct, that D. Schroeder on his website only published his findings on interconnects, but I think I saw somewhere, that he too would investigate if the effect was also present in speaker cables. Could be wrong though!
Anyways - if this turns out to be the guideline then we’re in for saving serious money as Neotech don’t come cheap.
Then again - why the recommendations to go with double helixes on power cables? |
@mawe
Highly inspiring and informative post!
I sincerely thank you for the wealth of experience you’re sharing.
You’re absolutely correct, when stating the requirements for PE, N and L here in Europe. I hadn’t put sufficient notice to this part, as I was inspirationally and blindly following the adventures of Steve and others. The legislation in US can of course be totally different, as they are running at lower voltage.
Now - situation is quite clear. If I want to run double helixes on Neutral, I will also have to have a double run of PE to fulfill requirements. Not the way to go..There is also another requirement stating that Live conductor cannot be less than half of PE. That requirement is fulfilled though.
Thus - suddenly reinvestment in Neotech was cut by half when only one helix is appropriate and correct.
Great information on solid core vs stranded vs size in conjunction to sound quality.
Would you mind detailing how you made a balanced interconnect using the principles of VH Audio? I studied their description, but it did not sound as a straight and easy path to follow.
I can easily convert the balanced cable on trial here, as I have double helixes, so it will be quite simple to take them apart in two separate strings. So far I have only used Duelund 20GA and 18GA Neotech UP-OCC copper as signal (ve+ and ve-) and mil spec as helix. I’m not sure I have hit the right combination yet, which is why your take on a balanced cable could provide some new insights. So far Neutrik has been the choice of connector while in trial mode, but Oyaide is in for the more permanent setup.
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@aniwolfe
I fully agree.
Steve is definitely on the path of Neotech now.
I was just curious about why he had skipped the second helix for Neutral when using Neotech. That was one of my original two questions. |
@mawe
Excellent - just as Chris Venhaus describes his cable.
I’m contemplating mixing things and design principles up a bit. Incorporate Steve’s idea by twisting the 28GA and 24GA as you describe, put them into Teflon tubes, intertwine them and make a double helix from 24 and 22GA Neotech UP-OCC PTFE. Could prove worthwhile....?!
Are you using solid core or stranded wire from Neotech for the ground wires? |
@mawe
Excellent - thank you so much. That was also my guesstimate based on your previously described observations regarding sound quality vs AWG.
Your input has been highly informative and much appreciated.
@williewonka
Thank you for explaining the road from initial trials to where you are today. That nailed a few uncertainties and corrected some misunderstandings.
So far - we are observing tremendous gain in sound quality based on your cable design. Now we just need to extract the final drops of musical enlightenment choosing the best wires for our individual systems. |
