I just installed a dedicated line, and it made a HUGE difference in sound of $20K system. Really smoothed out highs and added dynamic range. Used 12ga TX cable and highest grade ($6 each) 20 amp outlets available from Home Depot, run to a 20 amp breaker. Very good return for investment.
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I highly recommend you use 10/2 WG(with ground) romex and the best receptacles you can afford. The Watgates and PS Audio Power Ports are two great ones. 10/2 WG is the largest gauge solid wire and it will still fit into the above mentioned receptacles. Your electrician will think you are "crazy" and that the 10/2 is overkill. Don't let him bully you into a smaller gauge. Also if you intend to run two dedicated circuits then run three. You will wish you had run more later. Use new 20 amp breakers for your dedicated circiuts. Let us know how it works out.
Bob's right. Except that I'd like to add that a better cable than Romex IS an improvement. I use the 12AWG all-Teflon, shielded Belden 83802, and even twist a pair to make a 9AWG for huge amps.
Simple stuff: run at least two lines, so that you can keep digital away from analog. Use 20amp duplexes with strong contacts. The Pass&Seymour, Bubbell and Cooper spec grades are nearly identical in triple-wipe thick brass contacts and back-wire construction. I use all three. Cheap and good.
I also made heavy cast-aluminum 4 outlet floating junction boxes to terminate my 3 lines. RSVP for specific details and prices. You needn't spend lots of money here, but you do want to do some basic things correctly the FIRST time!
Mr. Strassner, the founder of HMS will have a feature running at www.6moons.com, explaining from a scientific standpoint, but written so, that every audiophile will be able to follow him, how to set up an audio system with electric power and how this is done right.
He will explain and rectify many misconceptions like having a dedicated power line running from the breaker box to a wall outlet for each component.
According to Mr. Strassner, who has accumulated a tremendous pool of knowledge about power issues in audiophile systems over the last 20 years (and is regarded as one of the leading authorities cables and current wise) this is one of the main culprits for distortion and bad sound.
What you need is one dedicated line to one wall outlet and from there you use a powerstrip to connect your components.
We hope to have the English translation ready in about two weeks and you all are invited to take a look and discuss these essential issues with him online. Since here, most of the grave mistakes occur, which ruin the sound of an audio system.
Every system, not only super high-end systems will benefit from this.
Eagle, Belden specifically produces semistraded (7x20AWG=12AWG) 83800 products for plenum-wiring without conduit for fire-alarms, etc. If this cable, for example, is approved for 600F test environments, then I don't see how you could have a serious problem with any electrical inspector. So far I haven't heard of ANY problems with inspection of the Belden 83802-3, for example, although I don't doubt that cheap 14AWG fine-stranded cable is prohibited.
The Belden 83802 is a FPLP rated cable, power-limited fire alarm plenum cable. FPLP cables are listed in NEC 760, National Electric Code:
"Conductor and cables for power-limited fire alarm circuits shall be listed for the purpose and meet the following requirements: A. Conductors are solid or stranded copper. B. Conductors in a multiconductor cable shall not be smaller than 26 AWG. Single conductors shall not be smaller than 18 AWG. C. The voltage rating shall not be marked on the cable. Voltage ratings marked on the cables may be misinterpreted to suggest that they can be used for Class 1, electric light and power applications. ..."
That seems to infer the Belden 83803/2 is NOT approved for use in normal household AC circuits. You should check with the local electrical inspector if the NEC is adopted in your area before going any further with this and advise others to do the same.
Romex NM, the typical wire used in AC circuits, is not approved in plenums because the jacket will melt creating toxic gases when the heat from a fire moves through the ducts. The teflon insulation and jacket on the plenum cable is more resistant to the heat.
Romex NM has a max voltage rating of 600v and 83803 is rated at 300v.
JPS Labs makes in-wall wire that is 600v rated like Romex NM. It is very expensive at $18/ft., but doesn't compromise the safety and is designed for what you want to do.
Power AC In-Wall cable
Oy. I don't know how you can infer that from reading this paragraph of the code. The Belden FEP dielectric is rated to 600F, and thus extremely safe for plenum use without a conduit. Its voltage rating, even at 300v (I thought it was higher), is still comfortably above the 120 it's used for.
You can even run it at 240.
The 600v issue is moot. I have seen several professional installations of 8380x that were not at all questioned re legality or hazard. 12AWG, all Teflon and copper. What's to worry? The stuff sounds GREAT, and is a couple bucks/foot.
If you're worried about an inspector not liking the 83802's twisted shield used as a bus ground, then spend the extra 50% on the 83803. End of story. $18/ft? The only stuff that I've seen that I'd like to see that perhaps REASONABLY approaches value at this cost is doubling or tripling up on the silver-coated Teflon 16AWG stuff Belden makes for a bit over $4/ft. That'd be $9/ft wholesale for 13AWG, or $13/ft for a bit bigger than 12AWG. 83802 is 1/8th the latter, and thus most reasonable for dedicated lines. Using the silver stuff might be interesting for PCs, though, eh?
From NEC Article 760:
"... The voltage rating shall not be marked on the cable. Voltage ratings marked on the cables may be misinterpreted to suggest that they can be used for Class 1, electric light and power applications. ..."
Did you really read it?
Look at a length of NM wire, it has 600v printed on the jacket. Art. 760 says printing 300v on the jacket is prohibited because it could lead to a misinterpretation of the intended use which does not include what you are proposing to use it for, power applications.
I have a definitive answer from someone who actually knows the National Electric Code and where to look in the NEC, chapter and verse. I would be glad to forward the information to anyone interested.
Double-oy! When I added a family-room to my house here in Medford the lectrical inspector insisted that I install a duplex in EVERY wall at least 18" long, INCLUDING the one between adjoining (20" apart!) bathroom and basement doors!
There it was: chapter, verse and line. Somehow he didn't question the oh-so-bright 83802 dedicated lines streaking from the breaker box across the basement ceiling. But then the former only proves he may be wrong on the latter. Sigh....
Belden tech support replied to my email and said they recommend their FPLP cable (83802, 83803, etc.) not be used for 110v power supply, from panel to receptacle. They said it is for "Control and Instrumentation" cables for Fire Alarm and Tray applications and are not designed for 110v applications.
The assistant state electrical inspector and regional offices both said an emphatic "NO" when I asked if FPLP can be used in this manner. I have now contacted three electricians, the regional and state electrical inpectors offices, and Belden tech support. They all give the same answer.
I had hoped 83803, at least, could be approved but unless it was overlooked by the local inspector it would not be, not in my state. I was told I'd have to get it all removed at whatever phase of construction it was discovered. That could prove to be a very costly mistake.
Receptacle spacing has been in the NEC forever, and is no bigie; in fact it's too conservative. No one would design a modern residence to Code minimum - and remember, the Code is *not a design guide, and most of it's requirements are *minimums.
Ditto Eagle. The wire mentioned is UL and NEC defined as Power Limited Fire Alarm Cable. The prob w/ 300V rated wire intended for power circuits is the abuse and abrasion that may occur on installation. Especially on retrofits. There isn't much margin for error. Hence building wire is all 600V insulation rated... It's thick, it's fat, and intended on getting beat up on installation.
Yeah, you could make up some PC's with this cable that would be OK, but you had better know what you're doing, and don't plan on dragging them around or walking on them...
There is, no subsitute or compromise when it comes to electrical safety.
Huh? But it's rated to 300v!
I wonder if the relatively tender Teflon outer jacket is the issue here? I cover it with a clear vinyl jacket for protection and a decent "hand" in my PCKits. It'd be a shame if one had to run it through conduit or another sleeve just for code-approval, as it probably works better with its minimal all-Teflon dielectric.
When you physically look at it compared to 12/2 or 12/3 Romex it's quite a surprise to hear that it's "not recommended". Certainly the vendors I've spoken with don't question its use at 120v....
Ican think of no better-sounding affordable cable for dedicated lines. It'd be a shame if potential users are disuaded from using it because of fear of having to snip it off at both ends if "discovered" by a hawkish inspector.
Very costly to remove? At least not in Massachusetts. Code requires that all "old work" be removed ONLY when discovered upon having full access, like when a floor or ceiling are ripped up and you see a few old cut up lines sitting there (as happened to me in my 1910 house).
NO-ONE to my knowledge has ever been asked to remove, or even disconnect, an 83802/3 line used for 120v.
I don't pretend to be an expert on codes and wire insulation classification. When you cut up the 8380x and look at its construction it seems awfully sensible to use for our audio power purposes. Since it's all-Teflon dielectric I know that it couldn't possibly be reponsible for starting a fire, so I'll take my chances, being pretty confident that a personal insurance adjuster could easily protect me from an aggressive company inspector if there's ever a catastrophe. I don't mean to be argumentative. I just want this excellent,very cost-effective product to be available to us. You couldn't design or make a better power cord for 5 times the price on a small scale....
I enclose this type (83802/3) cable in appropriate vinyl outer jackets for abrasion-resistance and tight PC connections. Nonetheless, pulling it through old lathe isn't something to be cavalier about. I suggest that naked 83802/3 be used carefully, threaded where it's visually verifiably safe, and perhaps terminated in loose "floating" power boxes rather than risking pulling across an old nail behind a lathe near an existing old duplex. But Romex is certainly at risk for the same reasons, although its junk-jacket is indeed tougher than pure soft teflon. Catch 22 again....
Romex is indeed subject to fork-ups on installation. There are many many cases of a heavy handed gorilla taking one too many whacks with a hammer on those romex staples, crushing the wire, creating either a dead line-to-neutral/ground short, or much worse, an arcing ground fault. Result of the latter: a fire.
Regardless of the conductor chose, note that in the electrical trade, residential wiring is called "dingbat" work, and is where apprentices start out at. No slur intended; they are just following the plans (Code minimum)as approved by the developer (Cost & time minimum), and that's why we all end up with $0.79 receptacles w/ #14 wiring.
There are NEC provisions that are stupid for the informed, but are there to protect the idiots. No, I won't list the ones I know. And that's why any intelligent engineer or designer, or provider of electrical material, won't ever give casual advice unless he is covered by liability insurance.
Your response was well stated, BTW. Personally, I wouldn't be retailing electrical products that aren't listed and labeled for the use I was advertising them as, unless I included a liability release with each purchase order, since you don't personally supervise the installation of said products.
No matter how "ideal" the 83802 and 83803 might seem for house wiring, the bottom line is that it is most likely NOT approved for a majority of people's house wiring.
I would urge anybody that uses ANY non-standard house wiring to check with their local electrical inspector (not an electrician) before completing their project.
What happens if your house burns down and your insurance company finds you used wire that was not up to code for your area?
I'm NOT picking on the 83802 or 83803 specifically, as even my super duper new power cord wire is better than half the stuff in people's walls, however it should NOT be used for house wiring either...
Eagle has done his homework and is consistently getting the same answer on this issue, so you might want to do some checking with the people who regulate this stuff, subrugru, and see if you get answers to the contrary.
Yeah, the issue seems to be the fragility of the Teflon outer jacket, whether its red or natural. I have a good friend who's a pro independent adjuster (worked both sides of the fence for 20+ years, and is a mech e from MIT, so we always yak about wires and the old "question", of course.)
Perhaps this stuff could be run through an easy to install conduit somehow to satisfy codes? I suspect that the soft vinyl jacket I use on my PCKits isn't sufficient, either.
Does anyone know the mechanical requirements for external jacketing of house-wiring?
Seems a shame to not use such a nice, quiet, detailed and affordable 12AWG'er.
Chris..."super duper"? Does changing it from red to white, and going "softer" (19x26 vs the semi-stranded 7x20) really do anything except establish propriety? We've done well to partially debunk the snake-oil around here re PCs....
Please send that sample I ordered. I'm pretty curious to run a few single-blinds to see if there's something audibly different. Thanks. GREAT new logo you've got, too!
>>>Does changing it from red to white, and going "softer" (19x26 vs the semi-stranded 7x20) really do anything except establish propriety?"
Sir, are you questioning my integrity, business practices or motivation? What are you inferring? Literally THOUSANDS of audiophiles worldwide haver made my DIY recipes for speaker cables, interconnects and power cords over the years, and I never ONCE asked people to pay for the designs. All I asked was for no one to "commercialize" my designs without my permission. That apparently went unnoticed by you. So now you are implying that I changed my cable design simply so I wouldn't have to compete with my own cable design? Ludicrous.
>>>We've done well to partially debunk the snake-oil >>>around here re PCs....
...in the limited time I've been here, the only debunking I've seen is the legal use of 83802 as house wiring...
>>>Please send that sample I ordered. I'm pretty curious >>>to run a few single-blinds to see if there's something >>>audibly different.
Would you like me to give you the name and telephone number of the engineers and manufacturer of the wire too? I'm sure your "single-blind" test will have absolutely no bias....
If you want to meet code requirements and have a really low-inductance path to your components, particularly your amps, then this is what I would recommend (several have followed this advice and are astonished by the improvement):
Buy three wires, white, black and green insulated 10 or 12 AWG THHN solid copper wire. It has thin insulation.
Twist the black and white wires together in a pair at 4-6 twists per foot.
Twist the green wire around the first pair in the opposite twist direction as the first pair. Twist rate is not too important, just to hold it together as a unit.
Then fish the assembly through plastic conduit in the walls using a "fish-tape" - an electrician worth his salt will have one.
Terminate the wires to a good outlet, such as the PS Audio or Acme silver ones.
This creates very low inductance compared to any ROMEX, no matter what gauge you use. Low inductance is what makes the difference, not low resistance, but it helps.
Chris, Lighten up!
"pay for the designs?" Are you kidding? All one had to do (as I did), was look through a Belden catalog for a fat-gauged all-Teflon shielded cable, and there they were: 883802, 3, 4, and 6.
I installed my 8380x lines two and 1/2 years ago, well before hearing of your "flavors". I won't argue the merits of intellectual property, as I suppose one can claim to reinvent the paper clip. That you published awareness of this cable was undoubtedly a fine service, but using a two conductor cable as a power line is NOT patentable, sir!
My "commercialization" is simply to finally be the mule who assembles this magical Belden cable with good connectors, a proper good-looking outer jacket, and instructions for assembly.And for an exceptionally low price.
How the hell can you call that infringement of your "design"? I understand the bruised ego, and suspect that you're now finally motivated to make a go of it with your own production variant, but your previous posts, ads and introductory price certainly seem to cast aspersions on 8380x, and that by twisting it extra hard, coloring it like skim milk, and softening its "hand" you can somehow reinvent the wheel, and now REALLY claim "intellectual property" improvements as well. That's fine. But this is indeed small potatoes. I've just heard from a guy in Brazil and one in Germany who are overwrapping my dearlittle $35 PCKit with a nylon "proprietary (HA!) cover" and getting dealers to sell it in the HUNDREDS!
You never chose to play that game. neither have I.
Over a hundred guys have thanked me for finally being the guy who put together a fine DIY PC Kit... just since Thanksgiving. I'm netting about $10/hr at this "commercialization". Ha!
So go ahead and take over this chore. But please desist from referring to this cable that you've loved all these years as being required to be replaced by a less "gawdy"
version that "takes it to the next level" because of your "intellectual property" needs. Your and my efforts are/were about avoiding the snake oil, no?
AC delivery is pretty simple stuff. Good copper, all-Teflon and shielding just about defines it, and you and I know that Belden covered it well. Now getting it code-legal with some easy to use, low-cost outer conduit is another story.
Maybe you should just make some zoomy CVH versions and go up against the big names at the dealer level?You've got a nice logo, website, and probably lots of connectons.
You can hide your milky magic in an opaque cover like others and offer a mid-priced cable that would outperform mamny others. Hell, just the stock Belden 83802 does that already. There ARE others out there simply using 83802 matrices hidden in Techflex, and charging $$$ for it.
I can understand your frustration, and decision to get into the game yourself.
I coinvented a widely used common lab tool called the Pipetman, and didn't make a nickel. But that doesn't mean that I need to reinvent a "next level" version and go up against my old self.
I wish you all the luck with your CVH ventures, but your defensiveness in casting aspersions on my bias in blind tests is a cheap shot, and not worthy of you. I simply would like to hear for myself what you've got. If it sounds better, and sits at a low price/ft, then it's an easy matter for you to grab some market by a fancy website and clever marketing. If most folks around here eventually can't perceive a difference, then the stock Belden 83802 will retain its place as the $2/ft giant-killer. But this you know already....
We're all grateful for your efforts, Chris. Please don't misinterpret mine. I'm not looking for a third career to cap off my work life by sqeezing for marketshare at the $2/ft or $35/PC level! It's just a nice service for fellow Audiogoners who want to build a PC or Power Box or two, and don't want to spend hundreds on raw materials bought in bulk, and/or just want a little hand-holding to get it done right.
We can easily coexist as allies in this small market where price-performance are so poorly correlated.
So please relax a little, stop feeling attacked or robbed, and good luck with your new biz. I'll probably refer MANY folks to you for spades and stuff in my remaining time here.
Keep well...you can let your guard down a little.
Not sure if my previous post got through, Audioengineer, but you have just described the "outside-ground" version of the Belden 83802 dedicated line we've been talking about.
Thanks for the idea about the plastic conduit. If this works then the argument's over. The advantage of this Belden is that it's shielded and all-Teflon dielectric.
I too think that 83802 (12/2, as you describe) with a countertwist outside ground might sound cleaner than 12/3 83803 correlated-twist internal ground. Great!
Has anyone else asked Belden tech support if 83802 or 03 is recommended for 110v power circuits? (besides me) It doesn't make much sense that putting a cable in a conduit when it is specifically designed to not need a conduit in the proper application would somehow make it suitable for a use for which it was not designed. Although I did not specifically ask Belden tech support about a conduit, they said their FPLP, Fire, Power Limited, Plenum (83802, etc.) is not designed for 110v power supply. They are to be used for "Control and Instrumentation" of fire alarms and tray applications.
Common commercial fire alarm systems have a main power transformer to which the FPLP cables are attached to carry 24v DC throughout a building. They are approved to be run through a plenum for the fire sensors and the teflon jacket is designed to withstand more heat in a fire and not give off the levels of toxic gas like other wire jacket materials. The system can be tied to a battery back-up with the DC voltage.
Since the braided shield on the 83802 is inadequate for a safety ground, it makes sense to run a separate ground wire in a conduit. That does not mean the conduit will allow the use of 83802. Ask Belden tech support, if they say OK I won't continue to challenge what my research indicates is reckless advice for house wiring. Then all you have to do is convince the electrical inspector to go along with it. Good luck!
This flap has gotten me curious so I looked into it.
I noticed long ago at the bottom of the Venhaus DIY sitethe disclaimer:
All content on this site is property of Christopher J. VenHaus copyright 1999-2002, all rights reserved. All images are copyright protected and may not be distributed in any manner without written permission. I do not endorse, and expressly forbid attempts to "commercialize" any of my cable designs for profit, without permission.
Now I see Subaruguru's post from 11-14-02 saying he's been making cords using the "VH design" for a couple of years and routinely selling them (for a profit). While I think it's a useful service to combine the excellent design with a one source shopping for all the materials needed to make the cords, was permission ever asked of the designer?
I think we need to cut through the smoke screen, stop the emotional outbursts, and give credit where credit is due.
Ernie, AKA Subaruguru: You state in your post:
>>>I installed my 8380x lines two and 1/2 years ago, well >>>before hearing of your "flavors".
I noticed that in this and several other posts, you state that you have used this cable for 2 years, and now you are saying you installed 2 1/2 years ago. Well, sir. I believe your math or memory needs a little work.
In a post you made here at Audiogon on >>>11-02-01<<< you state:
>>>"What about that nifty 12/2 copper-over-teflon Belden >>>83802 or 83803 I've just read about. Stiff, I imagine, >>>but a giant-killer?? Help!".
11-02-01 to current time is not 2 1/2 years. I would also like to point out that I first published my recipe in MAY of 2001, a full 6 months before you "heard about it".
I'll let the other members here decide for themselves who they want to do business with, but can you at least be more careful about your facts going forward?
Lastly, I'm asking you for the last time to stop making reference to my designs in your ads.
Chris VenHaus aka ChrisVH
The advantage of this Belden is that it's shielded and all-Teflon dielectric.
The shielding I see as a disadvantage, the Teflon is good. There is no scientific reason to shield either power cords or speaker cables unless you are wanting to reduce dynamics. This is why I recommend plastic conduit and plastic junction boxes.
ChrisVH - a question. Do you have patents on the cable designs that you are referring to?
Seems to me the right to litigate intellectual property is based on having a patent first. Otherwise, it is just a trade secret, which have the nasty habit of getting out unless they are invisible or potted in epoxy etc...
Here ya go again. I wrote to you personally to end this arguing, and instead you question timelines.
I write to you as an ally, and you bite my ass. Sigh....
Your request of me to not reference your designs in my ads is puzzling. Unless I'm mistaken I don't believe I mention your name directly or by specific association; I'll check again to make sure. But methinks you paint the herring red here....
I installed dedicated lines with 83802 in late 2000, which I referred to as two years ago last fall when I decided to offer the Kits. It's now been 2 1/2 years. The actual PCs were built afterward, as I didn't figure out where to get IECs until much later. Hence the post in 01. What's your point? Or are you just assailing muy integrity?
Eagle, I have no idea what Belden says about 110v use. We all are using 8380x for that, and its a dandy cable. The issue probably relates to whether the outside soft Teflon jacket is abrasion-resistant enough to use without conduit.
In most cases it is, but I suspect that most inspectors would want to see it protected further. But i have not heard of ANY problems thus far. I agree that the use of a third conductor (83803) is preferable to 83802's shield-as-ground vis-a-vis safety issues. Unfortunately the 83803 costs a full 50% more. The preferable solution is indeed to counterspiral a cheap 10THHN 12AWG ground outside the matrix, and then slide it through a conduit of some type, per Audioengineer, et al, above.
Re intellectual property: Chris' choice of 83802 as a two-pole power delivery cable is certainly insufficiently different from the intended normal use of the stuff to constitute propriety. The only difference is perhaps 24v vs 115v, if one wanted to stretch it.
I know that there are SEVERAL manufacturers of $$$ PC that use Belden's 8380x, and would certainly chuckle if presented with a cease 'n desist because someone thought of it too and asked for exclusive rights. And what would Belden have to say about it?
I can understand that someone wouldn't want to have their actual copy, diagrams, drawings. etc., electronically copied for commercial use without permission.
My only actions are to assemble the parts required to make a fine PC from a pre-existing cable along with my choice of connectors and outer jacket. It's interesting that Audioengineer posts above "his" idea for a counterwound external safety ground. By extension this is also a borrowed use of Chris' "design"? C'mon!
Chris is going to unveil a very similar cable that is completely his ownership. In this case he can rightfully control marketing, licensing, etc.
But asking for permission to use Belden 8380x in a 115v application is like me asking others to request my permission to use the slightly different-sized Yokohamas that I discovered improve the handling of Outbacks. Sure I
"discovered" the excellence of this application, but I don't doubt that others have also "designed" such an application in parallel. And why should anyone care?
I'm curious about your statement. Many of us use a floated ground in PCs to drain unwanted junk. Lower noisefloor usually results, certainly with no loss of dynamics.
I'd be grateful for more elucidation. I've enjoyed your previous technical posts. Thanks.
As you and I have noted, DIY PC building is a satisfying, cost-effective way of enjoying our hobby inexpensively.
NOT ONE PERSON who has contacted me re power applications has referred to my Kits-assembling convenience as a theft, borrowing, or copying of another's design...especially yours! Once or twice (that's it) I've been asked about other assembly geometries that resemble "Chris' other flavors", and simply comment according to their technical merits as I see them.
My point is that there is no choice customers seem too be making re "who they want to do business with" based upon anything but totally ethical, fairly objective (we all try!), low-cost practices. I have had no derogatory feedback re your business practices, nor mine. We're both
doing a good thing here, so I really would like to see a reorientation of your perspective toward my efforts. If anything your name is held in higher esteem by those who have assembled my kit and have known about you beforehand.
I appreciate that a few enquirers know a bit about 83802 from your site before they contact me, as well, although that does seem to be a small minority of those I've communicated with.
I'm rather surprised that there would be any concern about the possibility of intellectual profiteering in my part-time endeavors marketing a $35 product when there are others out there chsrging hundreds of dollars for this "design" incognito! Guess my transparency makes me an easy target? I suggest we focus on debunking the megaprofiteers nstead of squabbling with each other.
If someone is looking to take credit for the research and design work on these cords and the specific materials being used, i can pretty much state without hesitation that Chris is the originator of said designs and may have received a bit of help or a "few suggestions" from Steve Eddy ( and i think that Chris has stated this publicly ).
Prior to Chris talking about these specific materials for use in power cords, i don't know of anyone that had publicly used or recommended these specific Belden products for use as AC power cords. If anyone had done so, i would say that it "might" have been Jon Risch and his comments "might be" to try the Belden designs in stock form. To be quite honest, i'm not sure about that and i simply included that as i know that Jon is both a BIG fan of Belden products and of Teflon dielectric. As such, it would not have been "impossible" for him to have suggested such a use for these cables. I don't think that Chris has anything to hide and would give credit where credit is due. That is, IF Jon had come up with the idea or helped him out in any way.
With that in mind, the "modified" Belden designs, as far as i know, are the intellectual properties of Chris. Whether or not Chris can claim any type of legal or proprietary rights to these designs is another story. I do know that using someone else's name to sell a product that you make or market would be considered an endorsement and probably require some type of contract to do so. I don't know if Ernie has ever actually labeled these as "parts kits for Chris VH's cables" though.
Having said that, i have mentioned these cords on a few occasions and done so stating that they work in a very positive manner. In doing so, i have included links to Chris' website AND on a few occassions, mentioned that Ernie was selling parts / kits to make these or very similar cords. I never meant to infer that that these were Ernie's designs, only that he did have access to parts for such designs and was offering them in kit form and making them available to the public.
Out of all of this, all i can say is that Chris, Jon Risch and Bob Crump have been VERY kind and helpful by sharing their designs and making them public knowledge. All three have done so without asking for ANY type of compensation for the R&D ( which can eat up a LOT of time, labor and materials ) that went into coming up with the designs that they did. Obviously, there are those that have profited from this "shared" and "public" info with some folks even starting companies to make these products and / or parts available. I know that Kevin was selling Bob Crump's cord, Wayne at Bolder Cables is offering Jon's designs, Steve Rochlin's digital cable and probably some of Chris' too. I'm not sure about that, but i don't doubt it one bit.
Obviously, Ernie has jumped into the ring too, but done so in a different manner. Whereas all of the others have basically listed / given credit to the designers at one point in time, i don't think that Ernie has done so. As such, i can somewhat understand where Chris is coming from, even though he has seen fit to make such designs public domain. So, if "fair is fair" and nobody is worried about payment for design work or someone else making profit off of buying and assembling the parts to further the spread and use of such a design, i can see an easy way out of this whole controversy. I'm not going to spell it out, but it should be pretty obvious to those involved from where i'm sitting. Sean
Subaruguru, It's baffling why you "have no idea what Belden says about 110v use" (of their 83802, etc.). This must be at least the fourth time I have referenced the reply from Belden tech support in this forum. They say:
"These cables are not designed for use as 110 Volt Power Supply cables. They are listed as "Control and Instrumentation" cables for Fire Alarm and Tray applications."
That means they do not recommend it in-wall from the electrical panel to wall receptacle in residential 110v service. It's unlikely they approve it for cords either, but outside the wall is not the issue. How many audio power cords are UL approved? I do not think the use of a conduit would change their recommendation for in-wall use of 83802, but rather than guessing about it you should email Belden tech support and ask them yourself.
It makes no difference to me other than giving accurate advice to the forum readers. The method of running a ground wire is irrelevant if the cable is not approved in the first place.
Sean thanks for the insightful information.
Ernie, when I write a term paper and/or research paper I make certain I document my research, cite my sources, and give credit where credit is due.
As Shasta stated and Eagle implied: “No matter how "ideal" the 83802 and 83803 might seem for house wiring, the bottom line is that it is most likely NOT approved for a majority of people's house wiring”.
How true that statement is. Belden doesn’t want a lawsuit from someone using their wire for an improper instillation. Even if the Belden 83802 wire works, it’s a risk the homeowner is running in null and voiding their homeowner’s policy in case of a fire (as was mentioned already). Don’t use it for in the wall wiring! Although I have purchased 50’ and installed a dedicated line with the Belden 83802 (Chris VenHaus’s Flavor #1) and a separate ground wire. I did so for comparison purposes only.
I have experimented over the last year with various wires to use for dedicated 20-amp circuits. I have the following wire in use in no special order:
1) 10 gage Romex
2) 10 gage UV
3) Belden 83802
4) Virtual Dynamics 10 gage BX Cryogenically treated with Cryo’d circuit breaker.
To my ears on my revealing system I hear NO difference between (1-4)! I think simply using a dedicated circuit with 10 gage copper makes the biggest difference.
Let me see if I can make sense of this....
Firstly, I chose to use Belden 83802 as a 110v delivery cable (dedicated line) well before seeing or hearing of anybody's use or designs! That was over 2 years ago. I thereafter used leftover cable to make PCs. I found Chris' site later on, seeing that he too was using 83802 as a power cable. Small world! So Sean, I certainly didn't need to give credit to ANYBODY but a Belden catalog where I found the largest Teflon-dielectric, shielded, 2-3 conductor cable I could find.
Re the use of Teflon, I had a career in laboratoty instrument manufacture and QA during the 70s and early 80s. The use of various fluorocarbons (including, but not limited to, FEP, PTFE, PVDF et al) because of their low dielectric absorption and chemical inertness. I was intimately involved in R&D of tooling and molding these exotic, expensive plastics. I'm a co-inventor of a common lab tool called the "pipetman". Some of you may have heard of it. "Choosing" a relatively-available FEP dielectric is a no-brainer for me. The choice to use it goes back to the early 70s.
Larry, please! I'm not responsible for ANY uncredited copycating or plagiarism. I have MANY times told enquirers
that the materials in my PCKit can be used to make Chris' published "flavors", if asked specifically, and DO credit him with making public this application. But application it is...not a design. Choosing to use a readily available product for another application doesn't constitute protectable property, or at least it shouldn't. I don't expect to have to thank someone if I too decide to use clothesline to hand a swing!
I really don't understand all the noise around this. Anyone can pick from hundreds of existing cables from several manufacturers and use them for a proscribed, or novel use. Do understand that I am grateful to Bob C and Chris for their suggestion to audiophiles to DIY; I only proide an assembly of parts that allows them to do so. At these VERY low prices it helps to keep our hobby sane.
I also sell a power "box" consisting of a metal box with duplexes and a PC. Is someone about to come out of the woods and claim that was their idea too? I don't mean to belabor this. If the majority of readers feel that I've stepped on Chris' toes, then indeed I'm sorry...it wasn't my intent. I just am getting sick and tired of seeing and hearing about rampant profiteering in this aspect of music-reproduction, and wanted to help others. Chris has told folks how to fish. I'm providing them with VERY inexpensive
fishing gear so they can. I would think the focus here should shift to those who make HUNDREDS of dollars selling each example of asimilar "design", not $10!
Eagle, yes I've heard you. We're all using this cable for 110v use. It's designed for 24v use, as you've informed us.
It's rated to what, 300v and 200C? So 115v use with high rex audio equipment is a novel use. Belden didn't anticipate it, and never provided a tough enough outer jacket to meet in-wall residential use. I think I have this I'm NOT aware that the wire itself is not usable for in-wall 115v use. The problem is a mechanical abrasion one, not an electrical one, I surmise.
I can understand where a Belden rep told you it's not made for 115 residential use. They have to protect themselves from am after-market recommendation that they never sought approval for, etc.
I think it's VERY important to know whether it's technically acceptable to use this stuff inside a protective conduit. When I first discovered it I assumed that it's use as a "plenum" cable without conduit reflected a minimum outer jacket protective performance, not just a high temp rating. I also assumed that such use could involve all voltages approaching its recommendation. Seems yo make sense. What I didn't know is what I suspect is true: that the outer thin Teflon jacket isn't tough enough for unrestricted in-wall residential (ab)use.
My daughter needs the computer. Keep well, and again ,sorry if I've stepped on toes. As I get on in years and contemplate near-retirement work activity I would like to focus more on activity that "gives something back". I think that working part-time for about $10/hr helping like-minded folks enjoy their hobby affordably rather than get taken advantage of by $$$ snake-oil profiteers could be a small part of it. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Folks are grateful for my help, as I'm sure they are to Chris, Bob, Albert, Sean, et al.
PS Chris, please feel to give me a call. 781 483-3922
All semantics aside, seems it might be time to move off of this "mule" beating.
I responded to Ernie's add over a month, and via e-mail, thanked him for assembling the CVH materials I had read about at AA for 2 years. Always wanted to get into DIY, and this offering from Ernie was perfect for me.
He acknowledged the CVH use of the 82802 (as I did in my e-mail) and shipped me some materials. The mule did the legwork, and simply provided an outlet for small change.
Provided a nice, inexpensive service, and shipped a cable which I had no access to. Yep, I called annixter and the hassles was simply not worth it for me.
I see no harm here, other than a possible ego bruise, or two.
And I see no intellectual property rights violated here.
This is my take here. I bought a kit from one source... and it contained, among other things, a nice Belden catalog cable well known for use as an excellent PC. As the "customer", thanks Chris and Ernie.
Time to move on.
Xblue, I agree the facts are very simple here. The vast majority of the interest in Belden 83802 for powercords has been generated on the Audio Asylum by ChrisVH and talk of his designs for approaching two years. That's where I heard about them first also. That is the prime reason there is this high level of interest in the Belden wire and, subsequently, the kits.
I don't believe the magic of 83802 is this smoke and mirror show.
Eagle, it certainly helps to know that. I have only visited AA three or four times, as I don't know how to navigate it, wheras I've been an avid member here for 2+ years. Had no idea who Chris or his interest was about until I had already "discovered" 83802 in a belden catalog. Parallel developments in parallel venues. Got it. Thanks.
In my opinion Subaruguru has done nothing wrong. Or is there someone who makes cables and other stuff for free? I believe his intensions are good. I've contacted him a few times and always got an honest answer or opinion.
He has done much for the DIY "population" and even more for those who can't or won't make the DIY cables for themselves. So, why not let him do his fine job if there are people who apreciate it and have nothing against paying very reasonable money for his TIME, WORK and material cost?
He is obviously enjoying the DIY work too. And that is a very important aspect for me!
I suppose you wouldn't believe me if I say to you that I DID made cables of such "design" 6-8 years ago, altough not with Belden cables. So what? I know that many people, like me, have done so much before that someone posted it on the net... And those people don't claim it's their exclusive design or application. Personaly, I don't care about WHO has "invented" what DIY design or application because, in my oppinion, that's not the main thing here. But, then, my ego doesn't need to be "feed" by other people saying my name and I am not converting DIY-ing into a bussines...
People, this is all about DIY stuff. Get back on earth and let us continue DIY-ing. Here is plenty enough space for people with different aproaches, viewpoints, thinking, etc. So cool down. Long live the DIY!
Hi folks. MSN has eaten my internet service and email, so my 16 yr old finally let me use HER (guess who bought it?!) computer to get access....
I spent last night with a dear acoustician/ee/friend who immediately thought that Belden couldn't possibly approve use of ANY cable of theirs for in-wall use unless they had sought UL approval. The relatively small sales of their 83800 products is such that they simply saw no need to spend LOTS of bucks seeking UL approval. Maybe the recent dramatic upsurge in sales of this cable for 115v use will stimulate them to pony up the bucks....