Dear @antinn : Your post is a great learning " food ", thank's.
In the past the Audio, Stereo Review and High Fidelity audio magazines made it such kind of measurements and if I remember other two England ones made it too.
I have on hand the Audio review made it by B.V Pisha reviewer on the LOMC Ortofon MC 2000 cartridge. The review is a long one and full of measurements. Here the test records Pisha used for:
Columbia STR-100, STR-112 and 170, Shure TTR 103/|109/110/115/117, Deutsch HiFi No.2, DIN 45 549, Nippon Columbia/Audio technical Record ( PCM ) XL-7004, B&K QR-2010, Ortofon 0002/0003 and JVC TRS-1005.
They took " things " very seriously andn exaustive and way informative. Obviously detailing the analog rig used and after the measurements tests with tortuose recordings as Telarcs and from other labels.
Anyway, thank's again.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @antinn : I know that the cantilever could be stiff through that current and all your hyphotesis make sense to me.
The issue is that which kind of current level is need it to happens that mis-tracking?
Of course that could happens but the reality is that exist no audiophile evidence nowhere of any one that can attest an experience like that.
Now and on the mechanical side the compliance of any cartridge can change over time over the playing hours and normally we don't change the VTF due that the manufacturer VTF range iin LOMC cartridges is to the coils be centered.
Thank's for your answer. As a fact the issue is really exiting to think/discuss on it.
R. |
Dear @antinn : There is " something " in your 4. point where you said:
"""
The stiffening of the cantilever assembly will cause the cartridge effective compliance to decrease. If the LOMC cartridge is a medium compliance with low VTF, then it stands to reason that the cartridge will likely miss-track at audible frequencies. """
Medium compliance, this is what P.ledermann states about:
"" medium to low compliance cartridges. Cartridges with a compliance between 22 and 10. Most cartridges are between 22 and 10 in compliance. ""
I asked atmasphere that proposed the same ( almost. ) hyphotesis you posted in point3. and 4. that he showed wich kind of electrical current must need it not to stiff the cantilever but to make the stylus tip mistrack groove modulations.
A medium compliance LOMC device say 16cu normally be a very good tracker even in very high velocities recorded in the LP grooves an even if are recorded at the most inner recording LP surface.
Now, I posted that for that medium compliance cartridge could has a mistracking problem that compliance has to goes really low, lower than 10cu and this is almost impossible that could happens with the stiffness of the cantilever.
Not science only common sense. I would like that you or other gentleman come here to shows those " numbers " that can cause the effect detailed in your 4. point. At the end it's the discussion main issue.
Ikeda designed non-cantilevered cartridges with extremely low compliance and obviouly with 1gr higher VTF that a medium compliance that normally comes with 1.5gr and up and I never read any report of such kind of problem you posted and that was what I asked to atmasphere.
Your hyphotesis probably can't be proved it can happens .
In the other side, no single audiophile in no single audio forum sites over the world never reported that phenomenon.
Seems to me that's more easy that the mistracking happens with a bad mistmatch between cartridge and the tonearm about resonance frequency in between that by the loading resistor combination with the cartridge/phonostage. Only an amateur opinion.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @intactaudio : Yes that could be because limit the tracking stylus tip is not so easy and if we are " thinking " to do by the loading electrically effects the posibility to overdamps the stylus tip motion in unimaginable due that the stylus tip motion inertia is really high.
The more " extreme " mechanical stylus tip damping exist through the Townshend TT where the oil/silicon damping is practically at the stylus tip and things are that just no overdamping, I had the experience to listen at least twice that TT/tonearm andthe kind of damping it has makes a very enjoyable listening experiences. More as the last sentences PM information you shared.
R. |
atmasphere I'm not questioning if you have a conversation with JC.
The issue is that no evidence/measurements/numbers of that non-existent " limit trace " that till does not appears evidence for me is only your imagination/hypothesis.
You said that JC posted about on wbf and that's why I posted all what JC posted down there and exist no reference to that limit trace.
I know JC and know that he post only information where he already corroborated with facts.
That's all.
R. |
Dear @lewm : """
I would posit that subjective testing based only on listening is fraught with error, not the least of which is error due to listener bias..""""
do you already made the tests I did it? no? then just do it and you will know that that " listener bias " just does not exist because what you are looking for is if you can detect " anomalies " ( other than little changes due to differences on SPLs due to the load resistor. ) in the specific HF range.
Those kind of listening tests is a good approach to confirm that at least by our ears/brain there is no limit trace problem with the cartridge tracking abilities.
Taske your time and try it or not, is up to you.
R.
|
Dear @lewm and friends : This was the main subject in the first intactaudio post:
"" article in IAR #5 by Peter Moncrief titled "Audio Fallacies Exposed Low Impedance Loads for MC Cartridges" about loading and he proposes that loading down a cartridge helps it keep better contact with the grove. ""
Years ago too Palmer posted in Agon as an answer to atmasphere:
"""
not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load. """
@atmasphere thank's for your comments and I and maybe some one else would like to know which is that "
in my sample set ".
R.
|
Dear friends: Yesterday I mounted the Talisman LOMC cartridge that's an extraordinary performer and I did exaustive tests " plñaying " with load impedance and capacitance and no matters what and even that my system has very high resolution with every kind of distortions at minimum I can't detect/be aware of no single anomaly in the HF range and I put focus on that HF range. Nothing.
So with LOMC cartridges current or voltage phono stages designs makes no diference in that loading subject where that " limit trace " does not exist.
So and due that over 95% of the phono stages are voltage designs the important issue down there is the overall quality levels of the design and the quality levels of the excecution of that finished design on the market.
Btw, no one of the LOMC cartridges that I tested performs in a superior way when loaded at 47k, always inferior quality levels against lower loading values. My MM/MI I " historically " load it at 100K.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @intactaudio : Thank's for the clarification I understand it in diferent way.
At the end through measurements or listening tests seems to me that only you, PM, JC, Palmer and I " experienced " that loading subject and its effects, at least according with the facts I have on hand.
Sorry @lewm you was rigth.
R. |
Dear @lewm : Not subjective you are wrong. Here is the very first intact audio post in the thread when he shared the IAR PM findings on the loading subject:
"""
Being the Skeptic that I am I repeated his tests and confirmed his results.. """
R. |
Dear friends: Yesterday I took my time to make some tests on the controversial and now confirmed false issue:
I used the Carnegie 2 LOMC cartridge using same LP tracks in all tests some choosed for its high recorded velocities in HF and choosed tracks between the middle of the surface LP to the inner surface positions:
I runned first at 47K using additional 550pf along the cable capacitance. I runned to with out that added capacitance.
The performance was exactly the same with no additional any kind of noises/disturbances: not found out higher SPL in the clicks/pops.
The listened quality performanse is inferior that when loading is at 100 ohms.
Next I runned at my normal 100 ohms loading and no added capacitance and performed as I’m accustomed to listen it.
After that I lower the loading to 50 ohms and other that a lower lower SPL the HF response was not altered by .
I tested the 103D too with similar results. I had an accidente and I bended the cantilever and this gives me the oportunity to up grade this cartridge and test its improvements on quality performance level.
So both issues: higher click/pops and " limit trace...HF " does not exist. The theory is rigth there but tjhose issue just does not exist.
Almost any one of you can confirm by your self about making your own tests. Till today I know that intactaudio made it on the LOMC loading and now I.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
I forgot to say that I made the same tests with two diferent phono stages.
|
Dear @intactaudio : atmasphere posted to you:
"""
first, 47K is the industry input impedance standard for phono preamps. Second, I had a conversation with Jonathan Carr (well known of Lyra fame) on this very topic and it was he who mentioned to me that loading at 100 ohms or the like would have the effect of reducing high frequency performance....""
btqw, the 47k industry standard has no direct relationship with LOMC because 47k was choosed for the MM cartridges before the existence of MC cartridges and even that latter on appeared the MC 47k stays for the owners can use SUTs because does not existed active high gain phono stages.
Now, atmasphere said: " i had a conversation... "" . He talked with no evidence of that conversation that showed that " limit trace " in anyway.
Atmasphere mentioned WBF where JC participated and in that forum JC never mentioned that " limit trace... " that ( for me ) exist only in the atmasphere imagination and as Palmer said is false..
Here are the main JC highligths when he posted down there in the loading subject:
"""
Regarding loading of low-impedance MC cartridges, in general I recommend trying to reduce any capacitances present between cartridge and phono stage input to as little as possible. Use the lowest-capacitance phono cable that seems decent, turn off any additional capacitance in the input stage of the phono amplifier etc.
The reduced capacitance should make it possible for you use a wider range of loading impedances without having the sound go bright, peaky or thin-bodied. Conversely, any excess capacitance between cartridge and phono stage input will almost certainly force you into choosing lower loading impedances to save your ears.
Being able to use higher-value loading impedances should allow you to hear more of the dynamics and resolution that the cartridge is capable of, while using lower-value loading impedances will limit how much of the cartridge's dynamics and resolution that you can usefully extract.
As you said, live music is energy, and audio reproduction equipment should suppress that energy to the least extent possible.
hth, jonathan """
normally cables does not comes with low capacitance ( 32pf as the JC cables. ) but a little high one.
"""
My comments are based on an objective understanding (measurements, calculations, and simulations) of what a low-impedance cartridge generator is, what an interconnect is, what happens when the two are combined, what happens when resistors of various values are added to the mix, and what happens when extra capacitance is added. A low-impedance cartridge has an inductive generator, while a phono cable has significant capacitance. Put the two together and you get a huge spike at ultrasonic frequencies. These frequencies are much too high for any human to hear directly, but fall in a band that is likely to impair the linearity of the phono stage in much the same manner as excessive RF. When we "load down the cartridge", for the most part we don't affect what the cartridge does at all (unless the value of the load approaches or drops below the internal impedance of the cartridge). What adding resistive loading at the phono stage input accomplishes is to dampen the resonant energy of the ultrasonic spike, and give the phono stage an operating environment isn't so likely to trigger any latent non-linearity tendencies that the phono stage circuitry may have.
For the reasons given, the phrase "cartridge load" is misleading. "Phono stage input terminator" is a better description of what really happens.
Increased capacitance between cartridge and phono amplification circuitry will lower the frequency of the ultrasonic spike, which requires the application of lower resistive values to dampen the spike. Reduced capacitance between cartridge and phono amplification circuitry will increase the frequency of the ultrasonic spike, which can be tamed with higher-value resistive values. """
some one there tell JC the first statement here and followed by JC answer:
"""
you are not really affecting the audible high frequencies with any resistive load shown.
JC:
Not directly, no. To claim that the loading affects the measurable frequency response of the cartridge is bogus. However, if inappropriate loading bathes the phono stage in copius amounts of high-frequency noise, it may start to distort (unless the designer implemented various techniques to make sure that this won't happen), and the result will likely be intermodulation distortion. IMD products can go low enough to fall within the audible band (even when the stimuli are ultrasonic), and IMD nearly always is not harmonically related to the signal, making it particularly grating to the ear. ""
JC followed wiith this on his cartridges:
""" When authoring the documentation for our post-2009 cartridges, I went up as high as 600pF cable capacitance (to cover audiophiles who may keep their turntable in a separate room / closet). The official loading recommendations for the Delos, Kleos, Atlas, and Etna reflect this wide range of cable capacitances, and the inclusion of highly capacitive cables for special circumstances is why you may see loading values as low as 95 ohms suggested in our literature. """
"""
jc
Higher capacitance values should be paired with lower resistance values, and vice versa.
The loading resistor value is placed across the phono cartridge's output terminals, which means that any output voltage produced by the cartridge will be forced to flow through the load resistor in the form of current. The higher the load resistor value is, and the farther the net impedance is from the cartridge's internal resistance, the less current will be produced. Conversely, the lower the load resistor value is, and the closer the net impedance is to the cartridge's internal resistance, the more current will be produced. """
This is what a pair of audiophiles posted there:
"""
I have been experimenting lately with resistive loading on my Pass XP-27 phono stage. I am using the stock SME phono cable that came with my 30/12A table. I have an AirTight Supreme cartridge. I am finding that my previous setting of 47K ohms now sounds a bit flat and thin to me. There seems to be a lot of resolution and dynamics but the sound is a bit less natural or real than I am finding with lower settings. I have been gradually lowering the load values (increasing the load) and am now comparing the 500, 350, and 220 ohm settings. I prefer these because they seem to improve the sense of weight, body, tonal richness and warmth of real instruments without seeming to diminish dynamics, liveliness or resolution. In fact, the resolution seems greater. There is also an increased sense of palpable presence and more natural sound.
Nick (Doshi) also pointed out that the added "detail" at the say higher loadings actually obscures "real" information. I hear what he’s talking about with the Atlas and other cartridges
My MSL Platinum signature was best with 250ohm at the time with Magico M3 and pass xp-25. Now with Pass xs i prefer 330ohm.
1k and higher it becomes thin and i hear distortions.
So i think your recent findings are right. """
@intactaudio and friends we can read in those posts that JC never mentioned " limit trace... ".
JC is very knowledge gentleman not only in cartridges that's his speciality but he knows a lot on tonearms, TTs and Phono Stages because he contributed in a very well regarded PS design and build it.
I know him very weel and I know that what he post he posted because he has evidence because he always makes calculations, charts, modeling and the like. He is not a stupid person, is some one I respect a lot even that in the past he and me do not been in agreement in some issues mainly because my amateur knowledge levels.
Btw, here what Ortofon said on the loading issue and that's different to what JC posted:
"""
The lower the load impedance, the higher the current and the more dynamic the sound.
Best regards
XXXXXX
Ortofon A/S
[FONT=&]Playing with the input impedance means also playing with the sound character. The influence of the load impedance on the differences in sound is caused by the change of the crosstalk levels and the amplitude raise at the resonance frequency. The lower the load impedance, the higher the current and the more dynamic the sound.[/FONT] """
So and for me, the " limit trace..." issue is still false till some one can comes here ( as @lewm said: jumps here. ) and proves/shows true evidence and not bla, bla.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
Dear @cleeds : "
I think Ralph has been very patient with you...""
Patience?, I have years wating for his numbers about and he only showed and shows : empty words even that Palmer proved that that " limit trace.." is false and he posted that way: false.
In the other side I was not who posted the " limit trace..." issue but he was and that's why I asked about.
Now and in good shape: which the word to name some one that spreads for years and continue spreading false information?
Btw, I think he choose the wrong words: " limit trace... " to explain his way of thinking.
I don't care about any more because we are talking of false information.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
atmasphere : """
is loaded (damped) its ability to trace high frequencies is reduced because the cantilever will be stiffer... """
I said " at least not now...".
For the lectrical loading could " limit trace... " it needs that the cartridge be overdamped and the cartridge designers already has all calculated for that kind of cartridge behavior never be present or even approach it. It's almost the same in tonearm designer calculations when they design the use of oil/silicon damping, they make the calculation for overdamping can't happens because overdamping limit the trace of the stylus tip ridding during play the LP.
Now I ask for numbers/value of that loading resistor to " limit trace... " and you don't show any " numbers " about that can be corroborated.
No one wants an overdamped cartridge: electrically or mechanically, these is out of question.
This is what I posted to lewm in this same page for you can read it:
"" did you know how much " force " do you need to apply/need/ at the base of the cantilever to really impedes at the stylus tip position its free movements, a tiny movement? no?
Btw, do you know the " power forces/inertia " generated at the stylus tip when ridding the grooves at 33/45 rpm and what " force " is need it to " limit the trace " of the stylus tip to track when appliyed that force/loading at the other end of the cantilever? ..."""
Which is the force need it to broke that very high inertia generated by the friction between the groove modulations and stylus tip when the cartridge is ridding/tracking those grooves that can " limit trace HF "" ?
I don't know that answer concerning the loading resistor value to broke that inertia. We have to think that load resistance takes its effect at the cantilever base and the stylus tip is ridding at the other end/extreme of the cantilever and this makes " things " extremely complicated to that " limit trace " issue. """
Did you read it? because is all common sense.
So, your " limit trace ..." statement continue be false.
R.
|
atmasphere : You are so " curios " when posted:
""
electrical damping of an electro-mechanical transducer results in less high frequency output of that transducer. ""
no one is questioning that ( at least not now. and is not what I asked several times here and in other threads. ).
What I asked you are true evidence of your statement about that:
""" LIMIT TRACE....."""
wich of your words you don't understand?, that was the issue. Not any more and at least for me is clear that your statement about is totally: FALSE. That's a lie till some one prove that " limit trace .." is not false.
R.
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Dear atmasphere : You already had all the time and opportunities to show the evidence I asked about on that specific: " limit trace....".
Today I'm totally convinced that you has no evidence about evidence that we can duplicate in a system or at least evidence.
So Palmer was rigth ( years ago. ) when he proved that your " limit trace..." statement is FALSE.
For my part end of the issue due that now I can confirm that the ones that like me that think that " limit trace.."" does not exist we all are rigth and that's what we need to know thank's to your " answer ".
So never mind about, subject solved.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : Your post is not an answer to what I asked to you:
"""
how did you measure that " limit trace " as a function of loading and which is the point/value where the loading figure starts to " limit trace " abilities in the cartridge? """
that is what needs a more specific answers because you posted here and in several other ocasions:
""" will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies .."""
Lewm my answer to you is that other than " science " we have to use common sense and here what I posted before to you:
""
did you know how much " force " do you need to apply/need/ at the base of the cantilever to really impedes at the stylus tip position its free movements, a tiny movement? no?
Btw, do you know the " power forces/inertia " generated at the stylus tip when ridding the grooves at 33/45 rpm and what " force " is need it to " limit the trace " of the stylus tip to track when appliyed that force/loading at the other end of the cantilever? ..."""
Which is the force need it to broke that very high inertia generated by the friction between the groove modulations and stylus tip when the cartridge is ridding/tracking those grooves that can " limit trace HF "" ?
I don't know that answer concerning the loading resistor value to broke that inertia. We have to think that load resistance takes its effect at the cantilever base and the stylus tip is ridding at the other end/extreme of the cantilever and this makes " things " extremely complicated to that " limit trace " issue.
That theorical electrical loading effect is converted in mechanical energy ( the " force ". atmasphere said: stiffer the cantilever. ) what makes it even more complex due that in the mechanical land we have to take in count several parameters as: compliance of the cartridge, cantilever length and overall dimension and characteristics, status of the stylus tip because if the cartridge has over 1.5 khours of use its own tracking abilities changed that when the stylus had only 300 hours and not only that but even its compliance through more playing hours could changes too, the stylus tip inertia is different depending its position in the overall LP grooves and other parameter to take in count is the different velocities recorded through the LP grooves surface, etc, etc.
So, till now exist no true evidence that that " limit trace..." can happens.
@atmasphere can you answer the original questions?
R. |
Dear @lewm : I understand what you move to post about and I know you that almost always you try to give and explanation/your explanation and this is fine.
Now, I posted that I know that exist no one that can " jump " with true evidence of that " limit trace ability on HF " and I know because in that older thread where I participated where the kind of gentlemans that have a really high technical knowledge levels and rigth there one of them proved to atmasphere that what he said about was and is: false and atmasphere just left with out answer or evidence on the issue, as a fact he stay " dead silence ".
Just like here when I asked to him a precise question to rpove what he is spreading any where for many years and he do that even that was proved to him that is: false.
I that thread no other persons " jump " to shows evidence to confirm that that assumption was not false.
My technical level is very low and that's why I still ask to him for evidence on that " limit trace.." that like intactaudio I know just does not happens.
I know that you agree that can't happens and that's why you are looking for that " jumping person " that you posted.
Of course that like you I will love that that person appearead here to tell us that we are wrong and that that " limit trace..." exist and he shows the evidence.
But due to whom is atmasphere and his cotinuos spreading on that issue and with all respect he has the responsability to show that true/live evidence or accept is a misunderstood from his part. He can do the last mantaining his " dead silence " attitude that is a confirmation of no evidence.
The issue/problem is that " limit trace..." I hope he can come back with the evidence where ( I hope ) we can duplicate in our system and be aware about.
R. |
@lewm ;: I re-read your post and your hypotesis is only that and I doubt some one can " jump " here to confirm your hypotesis that can " impede it " .
"""
wonder whether the load resistor might affect the magnitude of that phenomenon. """
I can see that you like to make all more " complicated " when the issue posted by atmasphere was diferent to what you posted and I can't understand why not we can go step by step: why add more " phenomenos " to the main issue. I wonder why?
Anyway, you are free to post what ever you want.
R. |
Dear @lewm : """
could excite a force that feeds back on the motion of the cantilever so as to dampen or impede it. """
Could be but I doubt it that could " impede it ". What you said is not related to the loading resistor that's what atmasphere supports alonfg its effects/? ? ?.
Now a cartridge designer/manufacturer takes in count all the elctrical and mechanical scenarios where the cartridge plays its role and seems to me that everything is really claculated witgh " wide " limits for the different play role scenarios due that the cartridge needs/must will performs good in such different scenarios. I don't rthink that in a good top cartridge design we can find out " surprises ".
In theory and due that a LOMC cartridge has a very low inductance the impedance loading ( resistor ) just can't modified ( electrically. ) the cartridge behavior. Instead in the mechanical scenario/land several and different parameters affects and has effects on the cartridge quality performance levels.The " dull " sound that some one posted when the cartridge is loaded with 100 ohms in reality is not a " dull " sound and what happened is that with that kind of load ( tha's the one I use. ) the SPL goes a little ( tiny ) lower and our ears are extremely sensitive with SPL changes especially at HF but the information is all there and even cleaner that at 47kohms.
I attested that effect with different phono stages in many audio systems including mine.
As time goes on what atmasphere said has lower and lower and les " credibility " especially with out evidence by his part and taking in count the many first hand experiences we have that showed that things are the other way around.
You or intactaudio and other gentlemans as me are not true rookies in analog audio, we know for sure many audio main and critical subjects and if some one or something is out of the normal behavior/experiences then I want to learn two things: first if I'm wrong with all what I learned about or second to confirm that what I learned is rigth. Tha's all.
So we have to wait for the atmasphere precise and specific answer. We will see.
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : These are some of your statements in this thread that are more or less the same posted in other threads:
"""
to simply say that by causing the cartridge to drive a lower impedance it will of course be less able to trace higher frequencies. """
"""
[Lowering the R_load]... of course will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies. """
"""
so the cantilever will get stiffer and less able to trace high frequencies """
Two things on those statements:
"" limit trace.../ability of the cartridge "" and that means that the cartridge , by loading effect, lower is tracking abilities.
Now, you said in two of those staments "" of cource "" that means you are sure or you only infere/suppose that happens.
Your theory and posts says you are sure of that and my question here is that you can explain us: how did you measure that " limit trace " as a function of loading and which is the point/value where the loading figure starts to " limit trace " abilities in the cartridge?
I'm asking that because according with what you posted the loading electrical effect is " converted " in a mechanical effect that certainly degrades the recorded signal information.
I always say that every single day is a learning day and that's why I insist in this " controversial " subject: I want to learn because what you posted it never happened to me in the " tons " first hand experiences in my system and other systems and with different cartridges in diferent and same tonearms.
What I experienced always is that at 100 ohms quality level cartridge performance is always better as are and posted @intactaudio experiences who confirmed what PM for many many years ago proved/evidence when intactaudio duplicated more that one time what PM said.
I'm looking for evidence that I can duplicate in my system but before this if you please the answer(s) to my question.
There are several " sides " on the overall subject but I think that step by step we can have a true answers.
Latter on we can analize that " cantilever will get stiffer ", please latter on.
Btw, you know me perfectly and even that my language/words seems to say I'm attaking you it's not that way and never have the attitude to attack no one. I know who you are and you know the respect I have for you.
Of course that your answer is appreciated and you can be sure that be appreciated not only for me. Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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@mulveling : That's your contribution to the thread?, what a shame too.
R. |
Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla and more bla-bla. What a shame.
R. |
NO, I did not only ask for evidence and not more bla, bla like your bla, bla in your last post.
Btw, I know for sure the effects of damping in HF and over the FR. This is not the issue and stop to go " around and around " that only saids you are a lier as I posted till shows here that evidence ( like PM or Palmer. ) with no bla, bla.
And please the " victim " role is not for you , forgeret. If you have nothing to show then why posted again: incredible ! !
R. |
NO, I did not only ask for evidence and not more bla, bla like your bla, bla in your last post.
Btw, I know for sure the effects of damping in HF and over the FR. This is not the issue and stop to go " around and around " that only saids you are a lier as I posted till shows here that evidence ( like PM or Palmer. ) with no bla, bla.
And please the " victim " role is not for you , forgeret. If you have nothing to show then why posted again: incredible ! !
R.
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Dear @lewm : """ against your attack.."""
I’m not attacking him only asking for true proof/evidence of that " limit trace " that he spreads every where with out shows the evidence as foundation for.
R. |
@lewm : ""
I am running them at 47K ohms routinely now. I find the sonics to be more open and airy that way, and I feel no impulse to move back to the more typical 100R value. """ "
" them........routinely now.No impulse to move back...."
and now you said: one cartridge by accident.No problem.
R. |
Have a good time, especially all 2 0 2 0 !! Congratulations.
R. |
Dear @lewm : """ But you have absolutely no grounds to say that a 47K load on a LOMC cartridge sounds best to me in my system in my house with my equipment. """
Really? , well you have a short time memory even of what you post. Here is what you posted about, your words not mines:
""" But I have lately found that even LOMC cartridges sound their best when the cartridge is essentially un-loaded, at 47K ohms. The treble is more "open" and airy. Dynamics are also improved vs more traditional values of load resistance. """
and you followed:
""" I only recently experimented with reducing the load on my LOMC cartridges, which is to say I am running them at 47K ohms routinely now. I find the sonics to be more open and airy that way, and I feel no impulse to move back to the more typical 100R value. """
In the other side, yes I know that there is no reason for you can have a matter/worry that lost of credibility. Who cares about?, certainly not me ( not shock for me in any way. ) and obviously not you but after those posts by your self finally I can understand why you almost " die " for the FR/Dinavector ( terrible/horrible. ) tonearms and is because you love those kind of distortions. Good for you.
In my case I like different kind of distortions.
R.
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Useless with you. Keep talking with no true evidence of that " limit cartridge trace/tracking " due to loading changes. Only your bla, bla that at least for me is not enough because I have very low understand to with out evidence.
@lewm did you know how much " force " do you need to apply/need/ at the base of the cantilever to really impedes at the stylus tip position its free movements, a tiny movement? no? then what are you talking about? yes? please let us know?. and please no bla, bla like your friend but true evidence.
Btw, do you know the " power forces/inertia " generated at the stylus tip when ridding the grooves at 33/45 rpm and what " force " is need it to " limit the trace " of the stylus tip to track when appliyed that force/loading at the other end of the cantilever?
For the five time in this thread: Palmer is the only gentleman that did it his technical job where he found out no single evidence of that " limit trace " by the cartyridge loading. Is the only gentleman that posted true evidence but obviously as your friend you don't beleive him with out reason by your part.
Btw, you participated in that " party " of your friend and you was dancing with emotion when posted that you preffer listen to your MC cartridges at 47K ! ! From that same time/moment your credibility with me in that specific regards goes down/falls.
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : please don't change the words. You posted several times:
"" will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies .."""
where are the evidence of that " limit to trace ".
Damping effect is one thing and trace/tracking isssue in the cartridge is a way different subject.
I thinkthat now we are talking of different issues. Palmer proved to you and all that there is not that such " limit trace/tracking " in the cartridge abilities and in that thread no one including you had nothing on hand ( evidence. ) to refute the Palmer true facts:
""
certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load . ""
and in your last post in this thread now you are changing and talking only that : "
"
damping limits high frequencies ..." when for years you said " trace " ( including in this thread.
Btw for those gentlemans that don't know or forgot whom is Palmer here what he posted about in that thread when some one asked for:
"""
may not be a renowned Audio Designer, but I am a somewhat renowned IC designer with credits that include cell phone transceivers and high performance opamps.
I focused on high performance high speed amps like the AD843, 845 (at one point an audio darling), 846 (also a transimpedance design with some very interesting design aspects that I gave an ISSCC paper on) etc. etc. mostly using a complementary bipolar process that I helped develop that I believe was also used in the AD797. I also did things like designing the FET based AD736/737 RMS-DC converter and others.
I moved on to more RF, disk drive read/write, GSM, CDMA etc. transceivers, signal processing, PLL and DSP designs .."""
He was a leader team at Analog Devices and like all the engeenering gentlemans that works as a leaders in those kind of companies ( in the past National and today B&B/Texas Instrument and the like. ) Palmer has not only a top electronics/electrical knowledge levels and skills and tools where belongs his opinion foundations. Extreme high credentials.
He worked too in UK in Decca in the recording overall production and then retired and as free-lance is an advisor of manufacturers and through specific internet forums and individual persons that needs his services.
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : Could be my bad english.
Anyway, you posted:
"" will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies .."""
""
to simply say that by causing the cartridge to drive a lower impedance it will of course be less able to trace higher frequencies. ""
You said: "
it will of course ..". Where exist that evidence true evidence about because I don't see the foundations for your several years statements.
@intactaudio already posted evidence coming from IAR with evidence that tell us a way different " thigs " that what you support.
My post where you said I lost the " road " ( or something like that. ) was only an example where if we have a room/system with high resolution and low distortions levels we can be aware of what damping in the tonearms can do or can't does.
Damping makes at least two things: " cleans " the frequency range extremes that permit that we listen more MUSIC and less colorations/distortions/resonances with out losting recorded information. I could think you own that kind of room/system and enough first hand experiences with nera field listening of live MUSIC so your ears tell you for sure what I'm saying and if not then you are in trouble.
So damping it's not a " bad " move but a very welcomed parameter/characteristioc for a way better MUSIC enjoyment, to stay nearer to the recording and nearer to live MUSIC.
In that thread that I mentioned you participated, Palmer posted:
"""
the purported effects of heavy resistive loading you state could be definitively true- certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load. While mechanical impact does occur as a result of electrical load- there is some back emf necessarily generated by the signal current that affects the mechanical motion, but a quick back of the envelope calculation using Lenz's law and the 10uH cartridge suggests a 2 orders of magnitude difference between the generated signal and the back EMF for a 100 ohm load at 20kHz- certainly not enough to cause tracking issues I would think. As for the rest, well, take the Madake for instance- the resistive load that people (reviewers) claim is best literally varies by nearly four orders of magnitude! I load mine with 60 ohms (as do many users) and I find that the resolution and dynamics is excellent while maintaining a natural timbre, tonal balance and micro/macro dynamics while not creating the unnatural e """
Some one in that thread questioned about was not EMF and Palmer gave this answer:
" Yes, it really is back EMF- it's calculated using Lentz's law and is a consequence of Faraday's Law of Induction and it occurs as a result of the change in current through the coil- that's where the frequency dependent term comes from (the derivative). The term is subtracted from the voltage generated by the cartridge and in that way it acts to reduce the output voltage and hence the current, so there's a degree of negative feedback. I chose to use the full inductance rather than the MC inductance alone as a way to add a bit of correction for the physical displacement of the stylus/cantilever/coil that occurs as a result of the generated force. I did it that way as I don't believe that true reciprocity occurs and I have no idea what the losses are. The "gain" can be scaled to increase the mechanical feedback- for example the value of multiplier for the s term in the feedback could be increased to Icart*1.5 for example. What I actually calculate is
FBvoltage= k.Lcart*Icart*s, where K is the scale factor mentioned above (a default of 1), s=jw as usual, Lcart is the extended inductance and Icart is the actual cartridge current in the coil which I measure using a very small R as sucky LTspice doesn't include the right components to let me do it easily. """
I have no time rigth now to go on, maybe latter.
R.
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Dear @bydlo : He is changing as the thread goes on because the main subject is that he posted:
"" will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies .."""
" to trace " not attenuates and that " limit the cartridge abilities on HF range is what I’m questioning to him and asking for evidence true evidence ( for many years now. ) on it because in any internet audio forum no one and I mean it: no one never reported that a loading change or a 100 ohms load in a LOMC cartridge produce that tracking/trace HF problem ! ! I had not never with any cartridge in my systems in the last 30 years with different phono stages and different loads impedances.
No one is questioning the electromagnetic damping but does not exist that trace/tracking problem because of it.
I was not whom posted about trace/tracking issue but him and he continue spreading that inexistent behavior from several years now. Go figure.
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : """
pretty safe to conclude that if it is damped, high frequencies will be attenuated.... """
I own, owned and listened to several tonearms that uses damping like the MAX 282, Audiocraft, Triplanar, SME V, Townshend, etc, etc.
I listened to all them with and with out the damping mechanism and differences are not small.
Maybe you already listened the Triplanar with/with out: what differences did you found out?
"""
then IME the stock 47K load has yielded the best results. I do think its an interesting topic though and think it bears more research. """
I agree that needs more resarch from your part and disagree with the rest of your statement.
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : Really? because I read all your posts and after several years you never posted true evidence/facts that can tell us that " cartridge limit trace of high frequency ".
You can do it very simple: take 2-3 LP tracks and give us as examples of your posts and in this case we can have first hand experiences about because till today in no single audio forum in the web no one and I repeat no never posted that kind of trouble.
With all respect: bla, bla, bla, etc is not enough with out true foundation in your statements.
Why don't give us those LP examples? easy to do it. Of course that we need to know the different loads you try it and with which of those loads " things happens ".
I think that many gentlemans as me already made it that kind of tests and that's why insist that you bring here those facts. Please no more bla, bla but facts that we can corroborate it.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : You followed posting your opinion and some " answers " but as in the fast you just followed failen to prove the MAIN SUBJECT under debate that you stated in this thread:
""" will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies .."""
You don’t have any teue facts/measurements that can prove your statement but Palmer in the other thread I mentioned and that you, Al and JC participated measured and told you that what you say is FALSE:
""" certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load."""
Palmer proved with technical math simulations/studies that what you " touted " is not exactly true and in that thread you did not gave an answer to his post , I think because you have nothing on hand in that specific regards.
In the Hagermann link you posted you can read:
""" Most MC cartridges have less inductance than this example (chosen to highlight the issue), and so the typical loading value of 100 ohms is usually quite reasonable """"
@bydlo posted:
"[Lowering the R_load]... of course will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies. " ( this is what you posted. ) and his answer:
I fail to see it either,
@intactaudio
""" I do not see anyone debating that a loaded MC cartridge will stiffen its suspension, what I think is up for debate here is that this stiffening of the suspension will lower the cartridges ability to accurately trace high frequency info. """
Try to stop go " around and around " and go out of that circle where you are " trapped " by your self and give a direct measured answer to the main subject debate: limit cartridge trace high frequency.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
PS: I'm not pushing you as you posted. Things are that I'm asking you this questions for a few years now with no answer at all, a precise answer with out " circles ".
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Dear @lewm : """ is not perfectly damped... "" almost nothing in audio is perfect. Where do you read what you posted not only that but about that sporious motion that stiffens the cantilever?
Everything in a cartridge quality performance is important in its design and building quality but the cartridge suspension is CRITICAL and you can ask Ortofon about and you will know what they have to say in that issue.
The problem is that for years atmasphere posted here and in other net sites the same with out shows any single foundation ( numbers/charts, white papers, etc. ) that can attest that the cartridge lost high frequency tracking abilities ( " it can also affect the compliance of the cantilever of the cartridge. " """ will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies ..""" These are statements he posted.) and till we have true facts about by his side what he said on the subject is just false and with no true sense of that lost high frequency tracking ability by the cartridge. Maybe makes sense to you, not to me.
R.
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Dear @mijostyn : Almost always 100 ohms works really good even with phono stages with a low headroom ( but today designs comes with high headroom, no problem at all. ) PM is rigth and exist two " problems " as PM said at 100 ohms is not really dull but the sound sounds what is in the recording adding the less. That " open " sound reported for gentlemans loading at 47K like that kind of sprk and openess that are only added distortions for that cartridge loading value. I always supported that kind of statement for many many years ( posted several times in this forum and with out know anything of PM comments. ). intactaudio is rigth about : ""
to compensate for deficiencies elsewhere in the system."""
The other issue is a bad phono stage design or a " terrible " TT/cartridge/tonearm set up or selection in between with wrong matchs. @intactaudio of course syntax's sytem is in trouble and that trouble comes from the phono stage design. Btw, this is what we can read in the loading link you posted again: """
As mentioned earlier, the peaking is best damped by lowering the load resistance. This is why MC cartridge manufacturers often request loading of about 100 ohms. The next plot shows the 5mH 10 ohm cartridge loaded with 200pF and a variable resistance. Note the 4.7k loading provides very effective damping while maintaining a bandwidth of over 100kHz. Too much damping with the 470 ohm load pulls the response down too quickly. Most MC cartridges have less inductance than this example (chosen to highlight the issue), and so the typical loading value of 100 ohms is usually quite reasonable. """
and something important is that the inverse RIAA eq. was not take in count for the calculations and the site disclosed it.
As syntax said loadin and MC always be an often asking subject because loading function as a " tone control " but the culprit or comes for a bad PH stage design or from each one of us ears and our knowledge levels about how the live MUSIC sounds and of course our preferences on what we like to hear.
Btw, I don't know you or intactaudio but I'm still waiting for the @atmasphere precise answer/numbers on that high frequency lower cartridge tracking because the loading issue along that stiffen cantilever for it. I'm sure he will comes for.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
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Dear @atmasphere and friends: ""
and as I mentioned earlier, when you load the cartridge it stiffens the cantilever. ..""
""
It will be stiffer, less compliant. """
both statement from you failed for something very simple: no explanation about, no explanation why that: less/limited ability to trace high frequencies by the cartridge.
This is not the first time you posted the same and never suppotr those statements when other gentlemans somewhere supports what they said as PM confirmed by @intactaudio and certainly are my experiences too:
"""
He then goes on to show swept frequency responses of MC cartridges under varying loads showing minimal change in the frequency response.
He then goes on to point out that loading down a cartridge has a sincere effect on the side bands created from 400hz + 4Khz intermod test track. He shows plots of different load situations and it can clearly be seen that the more the MC cartridge is loaded the more the side bands that are created are reduced. Being the Skeptic that I am I repeated his tests and confirmed his results. """
Same gentleman intactaudio posted to you:
"""
What I am interested in is the underlying explanation why a cartridge doing more work will necessarily have this "limited ability to trace higher frequencies"
and till now you decided not give an answer.
But other gentleman posted to you:
"""
It sound like lowering the load might lower the resonance frequency? """
and again you did not give an answer.
In other thread where you and me participated a gentleman with a way very high technical knowledge levels that me and maybe than you posted as an answer for your touted statements:
"""
why any of the purported effects of heavy resistive loading you state could be definitively true- certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load."""
that engineer proved with technical math simulations/studies that what you " touted " is not exactly true and in that thread you did not gave an answer to his post.
It's impossible that the loading cartridge can really change the self cartridge tracking habilities.
For that can happen practically you have to " stop " in some level ( high level. ) the movements of the ride stylus tip groove modulations where those groove modulations movements are generated for tremendous/very high forces down there between the stylus tip and the grooves.
Maybe in a cartridge with 15cu on compliance this must goes to at least half that compliance for that could happen and maybe not even with that lower compliance..
I think that at least the other gentlemans deserve that you give them the answers and obviously to me and all the gentlemans that posted in this thread.
I hope that this time you don't stay " dead silence " about like in other threads.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @stereo5 : I agree with those two gentlemans, you need to test it at 200 ohms again and try to fine tunning the cartridge/tonearm set up at that loading.
In the other side your Technics tonearm is spot on with that cartridge due that its compliance is over 10cu, don't worry in this regards.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
