Are measurements the end all, be all?

One missing element in discussions involving measurements is how the hearer themself would measure -- their hearing, their sensitivities, their perceptual inclinations. I’m not talking about subjective (interpretative) taste. I’m talking about how they are set up as biological and psychological beings.

In other words, even IF we were to allow that objective measurements are the only thing that matter, we still don’t have the most primitive measurement data about the hearer/experiencer themself. We have (some) measurements for only one side of the gear-listener circuit, i.e., the gear.

So, lacking the listener half of the measurement picture, we then go and see how the gear-half compares with what people subjectively interpret as what sounds good. What a forlorn enterprise.

With these caveats in mind, my approach is as follows -- use those measurements which can describe whether some bit of gear will work with another -- "Is X amp powerful enough for Y speaker?" for example. And then allow that to delimit a massive number of possibilities to a more manageable number. After that, one has to listen.

Wow, those measurements are awful.

Measurements are not the end all but I think I can correlate what I like and don’t like with measurements, and sometimes why some might like speakers I do not.

Here’s what I would say though, these are speakers designed for low volume listening. The comb filtering in the high frequencies is atrocious, but for some it may make the speakers stand out as "revealing" because they will repeatedly emphasize sounds other, smoother speakers would not.

I can’t imagine I could listen to these speakers for very long, but for some, at low volumes they might be heavenly.

If I was playing Mariachi music all day long I think these could very well be my dream speakers. These speakers are "jump factories."

It’s worth pointing out a couple of other speakers with markedly non-neutral tuning that have better, smoother HF responses. Dynaudio often has a U or W shaped curve. Dali specifically shelves up the tweeter a few decibels.

They each have their followings and in some situations I can see them as exceptional performers. Not for me though.

Lastly, there is a lot that goes into building a piece of equipment but frequency response anomalies are perhaps the one class of issues that is the easiest for humans to perceive.  It is not by any means the end-all measurement, as distortion, dynamic range and dispersion all matter, among others, but I know how these speakers would sound to me... << shudder >> and again, think that they could be suitable for some situations.

I'll take a Klipsch Heresy long before I let these in my door.

“For me specifications do matter to me. I am interested in a speakers sensitivity and impedance characteristic, the frequency range as well as the guts. (cabinet design, drivers, crossover components etc... However what I most important to me is how the speakers sound and how to they make me feel when I listen to my favored music. Does the music fill my cup?”

@doyle3433

Most here would agree with above. Listen to them at Florida expo or arrange a in-home audition; if you like what you hear then that’s all should matter. BTW, Audio shows offers a great opportunity for you to explore gear and meet designers/dealers. 

IMO, one must hear and compare gear in their home before buying. That’s the only way to put together a good sounding system. Our preferences, environment and budget greatly impacts on how we approach system building.

My suggestion would be to not pay any attention to this unnamed site, it is well known for mob mentality. The founder and members of this unnamed site pride themselves at gaslighting.

@lalitk 

Most here would agree with above. If you like what you end up hearing at upcoming Florida Audio Expo then that’s all should matter. Also, it is a great opportunity for you to explore other speakers and gear. 

My suggestion would be to not pay any attention to this unnamed site, it is well known for mob mentality. The founder and members of this unnamed site pride themselves at gaslighting. 

I agree with this wise advice. Go hear them at the Florida show. Ask the builder of these speakers about how/why they measure as they do. I suspect he will provide a logical and informed explanation. Judge for yourself. Measurements are useful I do not deny. However, nothing is a substitute for actual listening encounters.

Charles

If you enjoy the sound of a speaker that measures so-so; don't worry-just enjoy it.

As for me, I like a speaker with reasonably flat measurements to start with. The room will still get in the way so I do use DSP to control the bass of the room and speaker's interaction, as well as a few minor DSP frequency corrections.

The end result of a corrected system is night and day with clean articulate bass and additional clarity and openness compared to a 'before' stock setting. It is so much better I would never go back to a system that did not utilize it.

The "be all end all" is what pleases the end customer, if it measures well and the customer don't like it that company will bite the dust= "end all"!

doye3433    You've the correct philosophy.  Balance.  Would you pick a mate, or boyfriend/girlfriend strictly off of specs?  I think they're near fugly, veneer on side panels is gorgeous.  But I'm not buying them.  They may sound spectacular and are eye candy to you.  Be your own person and find what YOU like.

I used to driver a 2004 Volvo wagon.  I loved the looks.  I was in a solid minority.  Did I care?  I loved the way it drove too.  Get them if you love them.

Consider that measurements are quirky, if all speakers that measured flat were the best then everyone would produce flat measuring speakers. I find opinions of people who own the speaker valuable as well as vendors who genuinely want happy customers. The website that measures stuff is run by a guy that basically stuck a pair of expensive speakers in a room made of dry wall. This is not really how any serious member at this forum sets up a listening room, let alone a reviewer. I would advise you to treat your room BEFORE buying any new speakers if you really want to hear them properly.

Specs mater as a quick reference… like you mentioned sensitivity and impedance. But that is it. Let’s say I was buying a new set of speakers I would spend 40 - 100 reading professional reviews, a few hours on forum reviews… of that time, I would have spent maybe five minutes liking at specifications. Then at least 10 hours auditioning speakers. From the specifications you want to make sure you do not make some big mismatch, like really inefficient speakers with a flea powered amp. 

Other than this, it is really important not to look at specifications. They will lead you astray nearly every time. The basic foundation of high end audio / Audiophilia is observation (like science). Every component and their interaction is about this. You must listen to them… each person has different values and the true musical performance (sound quality) is not capured by a few variables. This is where many people go wrong and go down dead ends or just get frustrated… you must listen to stuff and master the language describing sound… not make judgements based on a grossly simplified view based on a few basic parameters.

The issue i have with specs is

where they were taken (room) and

how they were taken (mics, software etc)

and then the operator (who did it)

has an enormous effect on the result. They are not a universal constant that is dependable when applied to other rooms, other sources, your preferred music and your sonic preference.

The only value they offer is measuring different speakers under the same exact conditions. So they really pay off in a factory measuring their production, engineering new models, trying new materials, etc.

I wont even go in to specs once a marketing department has a go at it.

Brad

@ghdprentice 

The basic foundation of high end audio / Audiophilia is observation (like science). Every component and their interaction is about this. You must listen to them… each person has different values and the true musical performance (sound quality) is not capured by a few variables. This is where many people go wrong and go down dead ends or just get frustrated… you must listen to stuff and master the language describing sound… not make judgements based on a grossly simplified view based on a few basic parameters.

Very well stated. The “science “ analogy is appropriate. Observation, interaction and then your assessment of the listening encounter. This is far more valuable and useful than numbers/measurements on paper.

Charles

Which speaker sounds better

1) 89dB 1 watt/1 meter sensitivity  OR

2) 95dB 1 watt/1 meter sensitivity ?

Which speaker has more bass at 20Hz:

80Hz-20KHz +/-2 dB SPL in a sealed box OR

40Hz- 20KHz  in a ported box?