So what is the moral of the story? There is no best DAC. And when you you find the best DAC, make sure you enjoy it, because there will be a new best DAC in 6 months.
Another lesson is how amazing the number of small companies that are producing state-of-the-art DACs at very high price. You need several hands just to count them. |
I have been using the Orpheus Heritage for a while now and agree with Geopolitis that it is probably one of the best DAC in the world. There are other contenders of course, but get the source, power chord and anti-vibration platform right, and it is one of the most natural sounding. |
Weiss Medea is a very very good dac , hard to beat. Technicaly i don't know any other dac with Zero output impedance . Weiss Medea has 0.2 ohm output impedance which makes it excellent . Having 0.2 output impedance means that the its output is truly linear on all over the frequency range. |
Murataltuev,
I own one of the very good DACs, that is the Weiss Medea. But I know a couple of DACs that are much much better and maybe you should consider them for your comparisons. The first is the Stylos SYS HAD and the second (probably the best DAC in the world) is the Orpheus Heritage.... I have heard both of them in a system with Tidal Sunray and I can assure you that the vinyl has no hope against them... |
Murataltuev; i have heard all the old DCS rigs, The APL 4.0, and 3.0, most of the EMM stuff and a great deal of the Esoteric stuff. The APL is the best DAC i have heard so far.
The DACS you have i have read lot about and get a lot of good reviews, Can you say a little more about the Lavry? |
Yes, for my ears and in my system AA DAC is also impossible to listen.
Emmlabs DAC2 is much better, but not TSD1 transport.
I had in my system many DACs and still looking for better.
I still own now Berkeley, Linn Klimax and dCS Scrlatti.
Today my new DAC arrived - Lavry Gold.
After one hour of listening looks like it will be my new reference!
May be not better than GTE, but definately better than all I have. |
I've owned an Accustic Arts DAC, an EMM Labs DAC2, an Ayre QB-9, and now use an EMM Labs XDS1 in my home system, and a Weiss DAC 202 for "portable" use. The XDS1 is a joy to listen to. Murataltuev, to say that SACD is almost impossible to listen to with EMM Labs is a ridiculous statement. Perhaps to your golden ears, but not mine. |
Rainer, August is ok for me!
Let us know the date as soon as it will be possible. |
Dear all,
sorry for the delay for answering.
I use the GTE with the special balanced output and an Echole Obsession interconnect. The other output (unbalanced) is a transformer output, it is also very good.
In my system the GTE outperforms the Kuzma by a huge margin.
I will coordinate the DAC shootout this summer, I would prefer some time slot in August.
Best regards
Rainer |
Is it still on or have people digressed? Oh, I can't wait! And was actually thinking if some highly regarded (SOTA, $70K+) vinyl rig will be available to shoot against? Would be very nice! I can bring some 45 rpm (including single sided) and also direct-to-disc LPs and corresponding CD/SACDs so we can compare apples to apples. :-) Just let me know the date! :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev www.aplhifi.com |
Can we get back on course and refocus on the DAC shoot out? Is it still on or have people digressed? |
One week without GTE listening to my Scarlatti and now I think that Scarlatti is muddy in compare.
3 rest to compare: Vekian, Wadia 922 and APL |
Kamil, where it is available for audition? |
What would be really interesting is a comparison between GTE and Wadia 922. Both use 8 x Burr Brown 1704K per channel in what seem to be similar technologies, and both use dual mono DAC boxes. The Wadia is of course much cheaper. |
GTE has 2 outputs. One standart and one special.
To use this special output you need cable with 120ohm resistor termination. This output sounds stunning!!!
The standart output sounds usual in compare with special one.
Reiner, are you using this special output?
What cable you use? |
This hobby is really getting ridiculous. |
Well for that price I suppose it should be! |
Yes. Unfortunately price is very high.
Here is the link: http://www.gte-audio.com/en/index.htm |
Can you provide a link on the GTE please? |
Dear MuratAltuev,
this finding of yours might make sense since Scarlatti costs around 17.000 euros and GTE Trinity 42.000-45.000 euros in European market [market of origin].
So GTE must justifies the more than double price gap!
Keep us posted with further findings of yours. |
Interesting that GTE was also very sensitive for power cable.
Tomorrow I'll install DAC modules on the rack and expect to get even better result (although can't imagine what can be better:)) |
I've just compared GTE Audio and MSB latest DAC with my Scarlatti.
MSB is great DAC. But can't say that it is better then Scarlatti.
They are very different and I definately prefer Scarlatti.
But GTE is something just unbelievable!!!
It is absolutely another class!!! After hearing what you can have with GTE, the rest sounds like hifi. It is like all your redbook recording become highres. Or like you are hearing them on LP with zero background noise.
Totally transparent window to the music...like on live concert.
I expected some minor improvements, but got dramatic changes!
My congratulations to GTE team! They did something very unique! |
Sure, Alex.
Today is first day of Russian HighEnd Show in Akvarium Hotel.
We have GTE Audio here with YG Acoustics.
May be YG+room doesn't work well, but sound was far from my home system.
Next week I'll have GTE for audition in my home.
And comparision in Reiner's room with APL will be really interesting.
BTW, best room here is ContinuumCaliburn with Tidal electronics and speakers! Really impressive system! Digital is far from it:) |
Dear Murataltuev, I can bring also LynxAES16 system to compare with USB and FireWire interface system. I have very special setup with separate power and optical PCI connection for card which outperforms any other source I've ever heard. Would you mind also bringing some of your most favorite CDs (the originals, not copies)? This way we can all hear the difference between computer audio and the NWO-4.0-SE VRDS transport. Also, we can learn how digital interfaces/cables compare to the direct transport/DAC connection inside the NWO player. Quality of source is so much important to compare great DACs!!! Totally agreed! Best, Alex Peychev |
Great system!
I can bring also LynxAES16 system to compare with USB and FireWire interface system. I have very special setup with separate power and optical PCI connection for card which outperforms any other source I've ever heard.
Quality of source is so much important to compare great DACs!!! |
Dear all,
yes this sounds great! Lets proceed and make this comparison.
There were some questions regarding the system.
Lets start with the room. It is 5,12 m width, 6,98 m long and 2,8 m height. This gives a fairly good distribution of room modes. The entire room was build from scratch just to serve as listening room.
Room acoustic (RT 60) is really flat at 0,38 s (not overdamped) in all third octave bands. Only below 50 Hz the reverberation time increases to 0.8 s.
There is a lot of diffusors included. Some are QRD types (based on the prime number 7). A very special plain 2D diffusor is located behing the speaker.
Powerline: Oyaide Distribution block, Vertex AQ coming soon
Powercables, IC, Speakercables: Echole Obsession and Vertex AQ soon
Rack: Special rack made from tankwood (similar to our speaker cabinet)
Tube Amps: Absolare Pure Preamp and Mastersound 845 Monoblock Signature Edition (highly tweaked)
Solid State Amp: GTE Trinity AMP
This amp outperforms the Mastersound easily. It has balanced inputs. So I would prefer to use this amp directly without any preamp.
Harmonix, Vertex AQ and Steinmusic Tuning Feets
7 Lessloss Blackbodies
2 Steinmusic H2a and 2 Steinmusic H2b (see stereotimes for review)
Steinmusic E-Pads and Magic Stones.
Kaiser Kawero Speaker (with some new additional features we are just testing)
PC Frontend with xxhighend memory software player (www.xxhighend.nl)
Weiss Vesta Firewire to SP/DIF converter
M2Tech Hiface USB to SP/DIF converter
and a good turntable (Kuzma Stabi XL4 with 4 point arm)
I will check my schedule and appointments but I think we are not able to perform this before High end show in Munich.
A good friend is willing to send a burned in DCS Scarlatti for that event.
Best regards
Rainer Weber |
I'd love to be there too!
From me the best after dinner dgestif...world's best Mastic . |
Rainer, I'll fly from Russia for this comparision!!!
Let me know the date!
From me best vodka in the world and caviar:))) |
OK Alex,
Scotch and top end DAC shoot out, sounds amazing, but I'd bring something a little more up to the situation like the 25 y/o Talisker or 21 Balvenie instead of Lagavulin, but then again, we might disagree on our preference in DACs too! I'd love to hear the NWO in a controlled situation, and would gladly put my EMM Labs combo into the mix! |
Dear Rainer_weber, I think a shootout would be possible. Let's work out the details. Please email me to schedule the time and logistics. I would like to invite you in my showroom (see www.kaiser-acoustics.com) for this event. Thank you for your kind invitation, it is very nice of you! Nice showroom you have! Would you please advice on the rest of the equipment that will be used for the event? The NWO-4.0-SE comes with single ended or balanced outputs, but not both. It sounds best direct-to-amp/s so the most important is whether you'd like to use balanced or single-ended amplifier/s. Wine and food is on me! Thank you again! And the "rotten scotch drinkers" will bring some Lagavulin, if you don't mind! :-) Best, Alex Peychev |
Dear Kops, And dCS uses 40 dacs (total) and not OEM but fully upgradeable and future proof. I think the FPLDs used in the dCS are different compared to the ASIC DAC chips developed by AKM Semiconductor Inc., Japan in terms of being universal programmable devices as opposed to application specific optimized devices. I prefer using ASICs. Now regarding modifiying than constructing
Imagine if someone can upgrade or modify f.e. a Scarlatti dac than to buy an already modified APL........ Let me try clear-up this misunderstanding about the NWO-4.0-SE digital player once again. It is not a modified or upgraded player; it is a complete redesign. All that is used from the original machine is the nice enclosure and the top VRDS-NEO transport (now featured only in the Esoteric P-01). All of the original clocking, digital filtering/processing/upsampling, DACs and analog stages are completely removed and replaced by our own proprietary modules and differential tube output stage featuring the vintage E182CC tubes and Lundahl output transformers. The modular topology ensures future upgradeability. Per your suggestion, this can probably be also done with the Scarlatti DAC, but we will have to remove everything from it and install our modules. Of course, you will end up with the same looks, but still miss the top VRDS-NEO transport. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
Dear all,
I think a shootout would be possible.
I would like to invite you in my showroom (see www.kaiser-acoustics.com) for this event.
I can help with the Trinity DAC, so we need some audiophiles who aree willing to bring their DCS or APL players with them.
Wine and food is on me!
Best regards
Rainer Weber |
And dCS uses 40 dacs (total) and not OEM but fully upgradeable and future proof.
And for Scarlatti or other top digtal gear owners that can accept extrenal master clock prepare for take off with the Esoteric rubidium clock it's fully compatible.
Then use top anti-vibration isolation, and top power cords and see (or better listen) constant performance improvement.
Of course this applies to all top gear.
What I mean is if you have Scarlatti or D01, or Trinity GTE, or any other true top digital gear first try to drink all the juices of it and then consider other dacs.
Every top dac has hidden many potentials all you have to do is to unlock it!
And yes a shootout in the same system with the same conditions is the best way, everything else are "poet's inspirations.."
Now regarding modifiying than constructing
Imagine if someone can upgrade or modify f.e. a Scarlatti dac than to buy an already modified APL........ |
The APL NWO-4.0-SE doesnt use any low pass filters and is phase-linear in the audio range, it uses the second generation 32 bit AKM devices and has 20 differential DACs per channel.
From what I can see the GTE uses OpAmps, and the NWO has a Differential tube stage.
But technical talk is worth so much, maybe a shootout can be arranged instead? |
others that sound different the sound of which some may prefer or not, but i doubt objectively
"better". the dcs is certainly one of the best but individual bias is probably the biggest determining factor at this level. |
For anyone about to plunge into a multi-box ultimate digital front end, my advice is to strongly consider a single-box solution.
Now, let me qualify my statement. Whether 3 or 4 or 5 boxes, you are really opening a can of worms. For instance, I have spent more to set-up my 4 boxes than the cost of the original 4 boxes. Digital is INCREDIBLY sensitive to vibration and power. I think a truly optimized single box can be more satisfying than 4 unoptimized boxes. Consider yourself warned.
Now, let me say that it was totaly worth it for me. It was not easy, but now that the money pit is almost filled, I can look forward with immense satisfaction. Everything required proper attention to detail and system matching to create something truly special. My DAC continues to amaze me day after day, and it keeps getting better with time. |
Rainer - appreciate the update on the Trinity, but alas no indication of whether they will/may/do come Stateside....
At somewhere between $40 and $68k - best pricing indications I've found online for the Trinity - they should be defining the pinnacle....that's ~twice to thrice the Scarlatti DAC. As the asymptote runs...
Shifting gears...I've had the Esoteric D3 and Playback Designs MPS5 on audition this weekend. First off, there is a clear, substantive positive difference between these two and my current dCS Delius - in MY SYSTEM AND ROOM (YMMV). The gains in imaging, placement, depth of soundstage are apparent and to my surprise non trivial. Player seating positions both forward/aft and side to side are decidedly more defined. This was particularly apparent on Carla Lother's "Far Away" [100 Lovers, Chesky records 24/96, foobar, lynx AES16, CARDAS HD26 to AES-EBU Dual Wire]. As for which is better or worse between the Playback and Esoteric, ahh neither. I now appreciate what Classic was referring to when he said "orthogonal". These DAC's accentuate different attributes in replay. For me, and again somewhat unexpectedly, I preferred the Esoteric. This reflects the premium I place on holography, an area I perceive the D3 shading the MPS5 as a DAC.
I did take the chance to spin a few SACD's on the MPS5 - a no cost option with the Playback Designs, if you will ;-) - and it rather underscores the strong relative value this player represents. Such an option with Esoteric is another $17k (the P3)... Suffice that if you were looking for a single box solution with DAC/SACD/CD capability, the PD makes a very strong case for itself. Remarkable. |
Hi again,
concerning the Esoteric vs the Trinity:
I have not heard this mono DAC, but for sure their statement concerning the first mono DAC is not true.
Furthermore it seems that it uses just 8 PCM1704 in true paralell configuration (The APL might use 20).
All converters make the same (or nearly the same)at the same time.
But what happens? You reduce noise by the sqr(N).
In contrast the Trinity is total different:
Each single DAC is delayed by one 16th of the sample clock rate. So you have 16 small steps (where the others have just one). This is analog oversampling, a very clever design where Trinity holds the patent worldwide.
An additional benefit is that you avoid the ringing of oversample und filtering in the digital (discrete) domain.
High res files with 176,4 or 192 kHz can be played without any digital filtering at all. Trust me this makes a stunning difference.
I ahve to admit that the Trinity DAC contributes a lot to our best sound of the show at RMAF 2009 (see stereotimes for example)
Best regards
Rainer Weber |
Murataltuev, I'm considering this DAC as it uses 16 multibit DACs per channel and must be something really different from all other DACs on the market! The APL NWO-4.0SE has 20 DACs per channel. |
Rainer - Does GTE have distributorship in the US?
Also you are presuming the Scarlatti as the standard...
Can you place the Esoteric D1 vs the GTE? |
Hello,
Kaiser Acoustics is developement partner of GTE Trinity.
So we have all their products in our showroom.
I had several DCS distributors in the showroom and they describes the usual performance margin between the DCS and the other DACs out there. Furthermore they stated that the Trinity is at least the same margin ahead to the DCS.
I have heard DCS at several customers, it is very good but it is not in the level of the Trinity.
Enjoy the possibility to hear it for yourself next week!
By the way: Where are you located? If you like and it is convenient for you, you are also welcome to listen to my setup.
Best regards
Rainer Weber |
Rainer, do you also have or had dSC Scarlatti in your room?
Have you bought GTE or have it for demo?
I'm considering this DAC as it uses 16 multibit DACs per channel and must be something really different from all other DACs on the market!
I'll have it for audition next week and will share my impressions! |
Dear all,
I have the GTE Trinity in my listening room together with the matching amp. Kaiser acoustics has exhibited it at RMAF 2009 in Denver/Co.
I have to say that I prefer the Trinity a huge margin above the DCS. DCS from my point of view is a good device, but can´t compete with Trinity. DCS sound still very edgy and "digital" compared to the Lineatec design of the Trinity.
Best regards
Rainer Weber |
Murataltuev, you should really try to hear it, I dont think you will be dissapointed:-) |
Perrew, I checked the price and you was right! It is very expensive!
Compareable with Scarlatti. |
Murataltuev,
the Focal have sort of unnatural sound from glass foam cone and the ASR is sort of transitorized grainy in some sense, so that might result in some of the findings but it is/was still not so imminent with the other sources I heard together with the same speakers.
About audition in your country you would have to ask APL. |
RTN1 - Spoke with Avalon and indeed the Indra is probably the appropriate size for my room. So mine shall stay until I get a bigger room.
Did ask about an Indra Diamond though, that's a definite maybe on that one....
So shifting to the DAC arena, one I am curious about - that receives remarkably little comment here - is the Esoteric D01 DAC...
Any one auditioned a pair? Bueller?.... |
All I can add is the Scarlatti is one of the finest DACs I have ever heard. All the thoughts on harsh or soft or whatever are about your system or whichever system you are used too.
My time with it has only made me respect it more. At these lofty heights of audio playback, attention to detail in the rest of your system is extremely important and may make or break your experience of it.
The DAC itself is extraordinary. All I feel you could ask for as an audiophile is can it be cheaper with the same performance?
In my system it is sweet, warm and ultra pure. Every aspect of the information put in comes out. |
Perrew, Scarlatti can't be harsh/edged.
It is totally different from harsh/edged.
May be ASR or Focals are harsh/edged, but not dCS.
In some cases dCS can be too warm and too soft, which is opposite to harsh/edged.
That is why I can't trust to your comparision.
I never heard anything about APL before, so can't comment it.
Do you mean that they sell directly?
So, no way to get it for audition in another country? |
Wflm, sorry should have added the APL comes with 3 year warranty no matter what the problem is. |
