Anti-skate

Raul, it is something that I "found" with my previous turntable set-up. The "question" is something I could tell you(you being someone who is having difficulty setting up things, or is forced to use test records for this.). The "question" also is something to stimulate thinking into what anti-skate does or should do. I'm currently listening to what VTF does(close to, or within the manufacturer's specifications). My Linn Archiv cartridge has the advantage of 3 holes, so much of its alignment should be correct. I believe that VTF affects bass performance, mostly. I will post my findings here, when I am done. I'm doing this mostly to help people who might need some guidance on what to listen for. It's probably been posted elsewhere. BTW, as far as anti-skate, I believe that you have to settle for less than optimum playback on that last song.

"less than optimum playback on that last song" was something that I remember from my last turntable setup, but isn't that true in theory also? Jsman, is your arm the one that uses the twisting of wires for anti-skate?

Stringreen, I'm sure that you overlooked or took for granted that Ghost_rider knew that the main purpose of anti-skate is to counteract the inward pull on the arm that the record exerts as it gets to the inner grooves. If you look at the inner part of the record, the circles made by the cutter-head become smaller, as compared to the outer grooves. This exerts a bigger force inward on the tonearm and cartridge. In fact, I believe that "Hi-Fi Answers" (Alvin Gold, Jimmy Hughes, David Prackel, Keith Howard where are you?) measured the total harmonic distortion(THD)in the inner grooves as being much greater than the THD in the outer grooves.

Jaybo's comment about the last song being less dynamic as an audio trick is correct, I believe. Dan_ed, what a system you have! I would think that owning a Basis arm allows you to ask Conti(the ultimate Analog perfectionist) about anti-skate. Ghost_rider, what I do about anti-skate, tracking force(VTF), and vertical tracking angle(VTA) is to look up the manufacturers specifications, and also look at what reviews or owners have to say. Then, I use those as a guide, or I keep them in mind while I try to fine tune them by ear. That's why I started this thread-to give a guide to people(in my case, what it would sound like, if you do it by ear). I'm sure Raul could give some advice here, but I'm not sure he could dumb it down for the everyday person(includes me). Ghost_rider, I believe that the standard answer on anti-skate is to set it to the the same value as the tracking force(2 grams downforce=the 2 setting on anti-skate). The initial controversy, in my mind, came from Harry Pearson's review of the original Koetsu Rosewood-in which he found the best anti-skate value was much less the specified value.

Larri, you have progessively smaller circles as you get closer to the end of the record. The speed is constant. You have a fixed pivot(bearings)far away. If you think about it, the force generated inward towards the spindle would be greater as you get to the inner part of the record. These really aren't circles, otherwise the same passage would repeat. They lead towards the spindle. So you have this big circle(per se) on the outer part of the record. There is not a great inward pull here. You have this small circle on the inner part of the record. These aren't circles-they all lead to the spindle. The pull inward towards the spindle is much greater with the small circles. I believe if you think about it, the differences in the inward pulling would be obvious. This isn't a scientific explanation, because maybe what you are counteracting with anti-skate is the acceleration of the inward pulling. I believe VPI uses a uni-pivot arm, which might use a knife edge instead of one set of bearings(which also means it doesn't have the top bearing). This combination(with maybe a little viscous damping)might negate the need for anti-skate. I could be wrong, but isn't the Graham arm also uni-pivot?

Ghost_rider, I looked up your Sumiko Black Pearl, and Sumiko's recommendation on that cartridge is to use the same amount of anti-skate as the tracking force(recommended tracking force is 2 grams, and the range is 1.5 to 2 grams). I assume your dealer did this. If you want to fine-tune the anti-skate, I suggest you ask yourself if records sound better maybe on the last 3 songs than on the first 2. By better, I don't mean that the bass sounds better, or any of that audiophile b.s.. What I mean is, do you enjoy those tracks more, or do you have more of a sense of ease on those tracks. If that is the case, then you have too much anti-skate(by too much, I mean a tiny, tiny bit). Just barely lower the anti-skate, then listen. Does it make the whole record sound better to you? If so, you have improved the anti-skate setting. What you are doing is actually balancing the channels, I believe. I would experiment like this, until you can hear the differences that changing anti-skate make-then you will know how to fine-tune anti-skate.

Dan_ed, I'm not sure you meant for your car analogy to be applied this way, but here goes. Try driving a car in smaller and smaller circles. Which way, outward or inward, does the car want to go? I was hoping here to simplify anti-skate so the beginner could experiment. Yes, I know cantilever stiffness and other things have an effect. I also know(and I believe Conti's arm is unipivot also)that anti-skate is different on uni-pivot's. But, I was not trying to preach to the learned. We have kids getting into vinyl. We have people setting their anti-skate with the anti-skate records(which may or may not work), and thinking that their anti-skate is perfect. And that's not even mentioning azimuth, VTF, and VTA. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy this discussion, but we also want/need other people to join us.

Sirspeedy, I find your story fascinating and very much on topic, as a linear arm has no anti-skate. Larryi, I forgot(or didn't think of) the stylus is being dragged inward like you described(Is it yelling and screaming the whole way?). I do think, though,that the general principle still holds for anti-skate. Audiofeil(and others) has made some interesting points. For instance, there are 2 points where a normal tonearm/cartridge are at its optimum, and one thought I had was maybe getting the anti-skate correct between the inner point and the end of the record may have some merit. Ultimately, we have to use our ears(while paying attention to specs., what others have experienced, and/or theories).

Ghost_rider, I would like to caution you about going to far afield here, else you get lost. You can if you like, but many of these people have(or have heard)very sophisticated systems. If you get too confused, I would suggest you go with manufacturers advice(adding any experiences listed, or reviews to the mix), and maybe try lowering it very, very slightly and see if it improves the whole record. Since analog is so enjoyable, there is no rush until you actually hear what anti-skate does. I believe if records improve, you had too much anti-skate. I'de like to report a little on my VTF findings here. I believe that(since I started with too much VTF) as I lowered it, atmoshphere appeared, but the main thing VTF does has to do with getting the bass correct. BTW Ghost_rider(and this has nothing to do the VTF comment),that Eichmann Express interconnect's strong point is the bass, I believe(I own one.).

I just started really reading some of the responses here. Wow! I think these guys are giving some incredible insights on anti-skate(including that rotating headshell). Audiofeil and Larryi said something that got me thinking(and since my brain's CAT scan probably looks similar to that of a long-time methamphetimine user), and I have questions(this way I don't have to think). Did you guys resolve the compression making the inner grooves sound worse and the inner grooves should sound better due to the slower speed issue? How does the RIAA playback curve fit in this, or does it fit at all? I'm only guessing, but I would suspect compression on the inner grooves is used over expansion of the outer grooves.

I guess I forgot about the heroin effect.

Ghost_rider, I didn't mean the rest of your system isn't pretty darn good; I just meant that your analog looks like it is just starting(based on your "System"). For some reason the following idea sticks in my head. I use a Mana Sound Table for my Linn Sondek, and while I think it's better than Mapleshade's maple board and rubber-cork-rubber footers, I feel that Mapleshade makes a pretty darn good turntable platform.

Due to my recent experiences with VTF, I've had to revise my thinking a bit. Now, this occurred when I was very close to the correct VTF and(I believe)the correct anti-skate for that VTF. My cartridge(nude Linn Arkiv)is also old, and it has not always been in my possession(i.e., it's worn). I was slowly lowering the VTF from above 2 grams to 2 grams or lower(I only have the Shure for checking this.). The cartridge mistracked, and the VTF was still above 2 grams. So I added just a bit of weight. I was listening to Simon and Garfunkle's "Collection", which started to sound magical, and because I thought it sounded better on the last cut, I subtracted a teeny-teeny bit of anti-skate-hoping that the whole record would sound better. The magic disappeared! I restored the anti-skate, and the magic reappeared. I guess the moral of the story is to use your ears. I still think to get close to the proper anti-skate, my formula is still valid. BTW, did we notice that most of anti-skate theories that varied(note: Sumiko recommends, and I'm sure others do too, that anti-skate should be about one-half of the stated value due to harder cantilever material.) were proposed by uni-pivot arm users?

I want to point out that when you get very close to the proper anti-skate(and probably VTA, VTF, etc.), you kind of have to throw rules out the window. For instance, I thought that on my Simon and Garfunkle, "The Complete Collection", that the last two songs sounded better than(especially)the first couple of songs. So applying my theory, I, infinitesimally,lowered my anti-skate. Now, the beginning songs sounded more like the later songs, and when I turned on the turntable, there was life in the songs immediately. Better, right? Something kept nagging me, and I,infinitesimally,increased my anti-skate. There, I got excited about the music again. My guess is that you shouldn't use things(i.e.,anti-skate)to compensate for other things(in my case, the sound at the beginning seemed to be pulled to one speaker, and, also, the aforementioned differences between the beginning and the end songs). I also think that my objection to the "description" of the sound of music has to do with how this can interfere with the actual enjoyment(excitement)of listening to music.