Another soundstage question


There are a couple of soundstage related threads running on the amp/preamp section and they reminded me of a question I’ve been meaning to ask without hijacking those threads. The speakers are Vandersteen 2Ci and the system along with their placement is giving me a real deep and relatively wide soundstage - but not much further to the sides, but I’d like the height of the soundstage be little higher. The speakers are on the sides of a bay window, about 10’ apart and with heavy drapes pulled on either side and about 2.5’ behind the speakers. Much lighter curtains cover the bay windows for privacy. In my seating position that is about 10’ away from each speaker the top of the soundstage is just about the top of the speakers, sort of like I’m sitting at the same level as the musicians. The depth is realistic but I think the height needs to higher to give a better feel for the height of the singer standing in the middle and the rest of the band scattered at different levels within the stage. So having said all this, is the soundstage height mostly a function of the electronics driving the speakers or its the size/shape of the speakers, e.g., speaker height, tilt, etc., the listening placement, or a combination of all of the above. Thanks.

128x128kalali

Showing 9 responses by kalali

Thanks. To your point, the realism of the soundstage improved significantly by replacing my SS preamp with even a moderately priced tube preamplifier so I tend to agree with your recommendation. Except I'm not ready yet to take the plunge since I just got the preamp about a month or so ago. The amplifier is a Vincent SP-331 with a tube input stage so I figured that was a reasonable compromise given my power requirements. For now, I may just experiment with speaker placement and see if I can tilt the soundstage up a bit. 
I have the Sound Anchors. I agree with newbee's comments in regards to the higher music volumes tend amplify the size of the soundstage. As a side note, I had a pair of Magnepan MMGs on Sound Anchors and while I never warmed up to their tonality, narrow sweet spot, etc., I must say they threw a tall and wide soundstage but only if I could keep my head in a wisegrip.  

Thanks gentlemen for your very helpful suggestions. I think I need to start with some test tracks, as was suggested, to first establish a baseline and adjust my expectation from my gear. As one of you said, I might be chasing the holy grail of audio and may have hit the limits of what my moderate system is capable to deliver. Taller speakers would definitely help - (did someone say Tekton DI or there’s an echo in the room?!). I’ll also experiment with all the free options you all mentioned and see how much I can stretch the soundstage without compromising all the other elements like imaging, width, etc.

I may give Johnny R a call tomorrow and ask his opinion as well. He’s been extremely helpful in answering all my questions about placement, matching gear, etc., without an even a hint in trying to sell me something. A real class act.

The soundstage is big and convincing by most accounts but I want to squeeze as much as possible from what I have.  Most of my non- audiophile friends get glued to the listening chair and can't stop pointing out the subtleties they hear in familiar tracks. The resolution as well as the degree of background blackness has helped a lot already. One thing that concerns me in this chase is the degree in which I can compare the recording with the actual performance so I  don't have an accurate perception of what the soundstage height should actually be. My experience with the live events is either way the heck in the back on top rows or on the same level as the musicians in the smaller/club events.

Great information, thank you.
newbee, you have superbly articulated the overall listening experience and your remarks reflect my personal experience with the various types of speakers that I have had the opportunity to own, particularly the planars and bi-polar designs. I think at the end of the day, it boils down to what compromises a listener is willing to make and the associated tradeoffs. Of course, if cost were no object, I’m sure one could minimize such compromises but the rest of us have to decide which elements are more important and enjoy what we have.
Thanks geoff, I'll look for that track. I have a relatively deep bay window between the speakers with thick curtains pulled to the sides behind the speakers, helping to create a nice and relatively deep soundstage. What I'm striving for is to get "right" size height. I adjusted the front spikes and added a little tilt and that helped somewhat. I maybe expecting for too much given my moderate system but experimentation is free and I'd like to exhaust all my options before I consider it done. Thanks for all the guidance.
I actually just bought a tube preamp from Aric Audio - the Unlimited model, about a month or so ago and I'm finally enjoying the so called mid-range bloom that everyone talks about. It makes the soundstage seem noticeably more layered with more air around the vocals and instruments, particularly horns in smaller ensembles. The vocals just sound more live. The height element is very deceptive though since it is very content dependent and could very well be absent to begin with especially since the majority of the music is recorded in a studio setting. I don't know if it's even possible for the recording engineers to "add" height to the recording.  They can add depth pretty good  not so sure about relative height. Maybe someone can give some insight if that is indeed possible. 
"...spend at least half of your listening time adjusting the speakers to the recording..."

wolf, while this might be the ultimate solution, it is really not a practical approach for most people. I had an interesting thing happen last week that changed my view of the soundstage. I ran into someone locally (on A'gon) who was selling a pair of Fostex folded-horn speakers that he had bought as a kit (Madisound BK-16 kit, $500) and assembled it using a Fostex 6.5" full-range driver (FF165K). He was basically giving them away. I spent the weekend and made them look real nice using ebony stain, etc. Lot of work but he had already done all the heavy lifting of assembling it and did a great job at it. Anyway, I made a crude stand, slightly angled front to back, to put them off the ground and set them up right next to my 2Ci so I could switch between the two. One thing that immediately blew me away was the incredible image specificity and the amount of detail coming out of these two drivers. I truly heard things I had not heard before. And depending on the content, especially live recordings, the soundstage was wide, deep and full of activity. The 2Ci has the width and depth but the imaging from these little drivers just places the instruments so well within the stage that I'm now convinced the key to achieving a "good" soundstage is image specificity just like a live event where you can "see" the instruments and that visual cue is what helps in creating the soundstage. In comparison the Vandys sound very matured, warm and relaxed, and of course with more bass. These have decent tight bass but need a smaller room which I'll address when I move them a another room upstairs and put them closer to the corners. The other "downside" is they are way too engaging for casual listening and tend to demand your attention at all times. Some may say they're fatiguing but for now I'm just thrilled with my first exposure to the single-driver speaker world and must say I'm impressed by the shear amount of detail they deliver.
I just realized I hi-jacked my own thread but this was such a cool experience and a revelation for me in the context of how the shape/size of a sounstage can be affected by how well the speakers deliver the imaging. I now "need" a nice low powered integrated tube amp to go with these puppies. It never ends....
Great article from the Genesis. Thanks for sharing. One thing that really caught my attention was that raising the back of the speakers actually adds to the soundstage height. Completely the opposite of what I thought. I’ll use the techniques described in the article if I can find the music tracks that were referenced in there. I assume something similar should work as well. 
Hey wolf, we always take what you say seriously....😳