Adding Tone Controls?

Bvdiman, Normally I would agree with your sentiments. In fact in my first post I completely avoided comments of any type on other possible contributions to the problems he was experiencing and a couple of possible solutions. None what so ever. As I said, he had good stuff and said he didn't want to change the sound of his system and I thought 'nuf said.

However since that post, he has recieved all sorts of recommendations, some fleshed out, some not. For example, the toe in recommendation. Now toe in with electrostats/panel speakers can be a huge issue because of the back wave, a problem distinctly different from toe in with boxes. Box speakers have a broad dispersion pattern vs the narrow dispersion pattern (think fan shape v a typically figure 8 shaped) of panels & electrostats. I looked at his set up and his speaker placement was very typical for boxed speakers, not necessarily for panels or electrostats, obviously IMHO. I learned that the hard way - no one told me. It was free advise that someone might just find useful, and it costs nothing to implement. Then why not? I saw no reason to assume he would be offended.

Ditto, Nordost cabling. It has a particular reputation in the market regarding its sound that differentiates it from a lot of other cable. Was Bama aware? If so, no harm. If not, well it gives him something to think about.

His post on 11/28 was somewhat interesting I thought. On the one hand he thought suggestions by myself and others, to put some type of an equalizer in the tape loop were very good ones, yet he neither closed the correspondence nor sought further guidance in an area with limited potential for resolution beyond that done. He just complained about the rec's that were beyond his original request. Complaining about free advise is always curious to me.

This suggested to me that perhaps, even against his comments to the contrary, that fleshed out recommendations might cause him to re-think his problems and potential solutions. I thought I'd take a try at spelling it out a bit. If he already knows - OK. If he doesn't know, he learns. What's at risk, his ego? Why would/should we think that? I work on the assumption that only your friends tell you your fly is open. Others like to just stand back and giggle.

Why do I take the time to write two posts and even explain myself to you? It is because I am (and I would like to say we are) trying to help him improve his sound, even if we have to go beyond his request. That is what most of us would want if we were in the posters position. Pride disappearing in the face of constructive critism or honest observations is not an attribute I normally ascribe to folks who need help, validation perhaps. After all, at the worst we are all a bunch of assholes and he'll never correspond with us again, or perhaps he had a hole in his knowledge base that we have helped him fill.

Whatever....It is free after all.

There is absolutely no valid reason not to use an equalizer, or a set of tone controls, IF you put it in the tape loop of your pre-amp. Judging by the effort you have already made to get quality sound, I think you would be disappointed if you just put it between your amp and pre-amp. It will affect the quality of the sound you have and be a PITA to use all of the time as you went from one type of redcording to another.

Another possible solution - get an inexpensive tubed DAC or CDP - then find tubes that will give you a very warm sound. That helps a lot and you can keep it cheap if you're careful.

But on the whole I would use an equalizer in the tape loop.

Bama, FWIW, you can lower the volume of distortion in the upper-mids and highs, but you still get distortion only on a slightly reduced level. Maybe not so good.

But, how do you know without trying first. Perhaps an equalizer or tone control, digital or analog, will solve the problem. Maybe not. It is the cheapest possible solution though. And for me at least, the choice would be the simplist one to use, i.e. it has the flattest learning curve and very simple to use. After all, the recordings are poor in the first place, what would be lost?

I have not challenged the sound quality of the equipment or the set up being used. (You didn't ask and it is good stuff.) But, FWIW, I think the synergy itself may produce a set up with overly emphasized upper mids/highs which passes amoungst many audiophiles as evidence of what the sound should be, but rarely that it is too bright, because it is so smooth when playing high quality recordings you accept the HF emphasis as being correct or consonant with live music.

Obviously when the OP then plays a lower quality recording the poor highs etc stand out like a sore thumb. This is a problem I think created by the industry professionals in making and marketing stuff. Everyone is demanding high quality resolution and the professional's response is often little more than elevating the sound of the high(er) frequencies either by using frequency responses or rise/fall times, i.e. speed, changing the natural resolution of the sound.

A couple of things about your system which caused me to bring this up. The speaker set up looks good but you have a lot of glass and hard wall surfaces behind your speakers which can overemphasize backwave sound and cause distortions.

I would put reflective/absorbant materiels on those walls/glass. Also you can change the direction of the back wave by toing in the speakers so that you are listening on axis. Then the back wave is bouncing off the backwall (or in a narrow room, the side wall) at an angle which will make its arrival at the listening position much more distinct from the first signal (I did that very successfully with Quad 63's).

I would also try some different cable, something not known (in a general sense) for its 'wonderful' delivery of the high frequencies. I used Nordost cables for a time - loved the 'clarity' until found that it really only over emphasized the extant highs of my system.

If you did those things, your first impression might be that you have just dulled down the overall sound of your system, and you just well might have done so, but consider whether or not the new 'sound' is dulled down or actually more realistic, i.e. sounds like real live music, not just the sound of high end audio.

FWIW I went through high quality analog tone controls and equalizers several times many years ago for just the problem you are trying to solve. I haven't used them in years. Their demise started with the conclusion that the sound I was experiencing was more because of my need to have 'face', by buying and implementing really high end stuff, inadequately I think, than it was to produce a sound that was consonant with what good sounding music could sound like in my home. I recall then getting a lot of admiration (of equipment) and a concurrent inability to produce what I considered high quality sound. (Now I get excellent sound and little appreciation. :-)

I don't know if this is of any value to you at all, but what the hell....and its free! :-)

Bama, Nice post. A couple of comments on speaker/listening chair location/set up. Keep an open mind on this because some of it is not intuitive and conrtary to customary set up.

1) Set the speakers up so that the speakers/listening chair form an equallateral triangle. In a room with you room's dimensions I would keep the distance from the back wall at 5'+, but I would seperate the speakers substantially more apart. Say 10' with the listening chair back to about 10 - 11'. This will give you a much larger soundstage and, in my experience contribute to reducing congestion which is not unusual when the speakers are too close together and listened for far back.

This will also place the speakers closer to the side walls but due to the nature of those speaker's radiation pattern side wall reflections are not a big issue (remember figure 8 pattern). The only thing it might affect is the bass response linearity a bit, maybe a little boost between 100 and 200 hz. But then all speaker position will do that Often its a matter of choice of options, not perfection.

2)I would toe the speakers in so the axis of the speakers pointed at the listening chair and the back wave bounced off the side wall behind them. This will reduce the need for acoustic treatment on the wall behind the speakers substantially and quite possibly bring the stereo image into greater focus.

This is going to look and sound different than your present set up substantially I think. It will also require some tweaking after initial set up so give it a chance. If it works it will save you money and grief and perhaps as I suspect enhance your listening experience. If not just put them back to where you have set them now. Invest a couple of weeks (at least in this project). I discovered all of this the hard way and it took me an embarrasing long time :-)

BTW, flat bass response set with meter or by ear is going to be impossible, close perhaps. But I do not let flat bass response dictate where I set my speakers unless it is gross. It's the mid's and highs that are essential. Usually the location of the listening chair is as, if not more, important for getting a good bass response anyway.

OK, I'm done. Sorry for the length of my posts. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

Bama, If you're still around....

I just noticed a thread asking about some Perreaux stuff, an Amp, Preamp and the TC (short for tone controls). I put this in my SP10 in the 80's to do just what you are trying to do. Its really transparent and will work well in your pre-amp tape loop. It has 3 tone control, low medium, and high. It also has high and low filters, a defeat switch and a headphone amp. It was intended to be used in-line between amp and pre-amp and works well there. If you are interested let the guy know. I suspect its worth about $150 +/-. Cost about $350 new. Contact the guy if you're interested.

FWIW :-)

FWIW.