Wow Ctsooner, and I finally agree on something, The DCS is very detailed but has no soul.
We sell many of the top digital front ends on the market, I am surprised no one has brought up the T+A PDP 3000 which is a state of the art dac, CD player, Sacd player, it is remarkably good and plays DSD 512.
We also have the Light Harmonic Davinci which can be had in the MK I guise for less then the new MK II absolutely world class sound, organic and in a different league of performance than almost any digital front end you will hear, huge sound stage, warm midrange, incredible resolution, killed the Berkly.
We also have the Aqua Digital and EMM Labs as well.
If you are on the East Coast we have one of the largest selections of digital products:
we have Naim, Lumin, Aurender, Baetis, EMM Labs, Mytek, Light Harmonic Davinci, T+A and we are always evaluating new digital front ends.
The T+A digital front end was rated by Robert Harley as the best SACD playback he has ever heard.
If we can be of assistance please feel free to give us a call.
Dave is in the shop most of the time, I can be reached on some weekends.
Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873 |
I will talk to him tomorrow, what is the rest of your system and where are you located?
I am sure we can arrange for a demo. You should call the shop. |
I agree Reverendo, the MK II Davinci is even better than the Mark One almost impossible to hear as the owner of Light Harmonic is personally upgrading each unit himself so the likely hood is what you heard was a MK I Dual Dac
The Mark II Dual Dac expands on everything in the MK I and adds 768k and DSD 512.
We are feeding our Davinci with a Baetis Reference computer and the sound is to die for, extremely analog with tremendous air and depth.
If you are ever in our neck of the woods love for you to hear our setup.
Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873
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Dragon Vibe,
We are also an Aqua Dealer, and will be testing a Forumla some time later this year. What I will say based on having a La Scala MK II in the shop and if you read the Six Moons review of the Formula, Serjan, found that the Forumla was better in terms of spatiality, resolution and smoothness, but didn’t blow the La Scala away in every area and in a few areas macrodynamics and image density pefered the older Lascala MK II.
In our shop the Davinc decimates the La Scala and so it should considering the price difference.
What I will say is the Aqua digital is a wonderful sounding, very musical sound with a huge soundstage and very propulsive bass. It is very involving. The La Scala is a buy for its amazingly musical sound and its fantastic build quality for a $7k dac for the La Scala and $13k for the Formula.
You would love the Davinci which expands on everything the Forumla does. The Davinci is incredibily musical and sounds like a good vinyl front end but unlike Lampis and other very tubey sounding products the Davinci is very airy and extended in the top end without calling attention to itself.
The Davinci Dual Dac MK II also can handle any DSD file up to 512 and has a pure PCM Ladder Dac stage just like the Aqua.
Don’t get me wrong the Aqua stuff is fantastic and for the money is very hard to beat. If you are on the East Coast come in for a demo.
If you ever want to talk digital we have one of the best selections around including: Emm Labs, Aqua, Aurender, Baetis, Lumin, Naim, Cary, T+A
So far we have tested the Davinci Dual Dac MK I vs the DCD Rosini, Berkley, EMM Labs Dacs, and the Aqua and all the other dacs in the shop and so far nothing has come close.
Troy
Audio Doctor
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One may conclude after anylizing this thread that it is complete system synergy that is what is really important here.
In reality every dac that has been discussed has its merits and may just sing in one particular system. The Lampi is certainly one of the top dacs on the market, along with the Davinci, the DCS products, the EMM Labs Dacs, the Playback etc.
The issue then really boils down to a couple of things which may sway the listener to single in one factors such as:
1: Up-gradablility
2: Ease of serviceability
3: Construction quality/styling
4: Features
5: Overall value
This is one of the reasons we have traditionally offered dac from a number of great companies as usually one size does not fit all.
The salient point is that you must listen to these products in your own system and you must also experiement with tuning your system to bring out the qualties that you are looking for in both the system and the dac.
We got one level of sound quality with the Aurender units and another level with the Baetis computer.
So go out and just listen and then experiment with your source, one of t he nicest things about the Baetis or any true computer based solution is the freedom to listen to your dac with DSD files or PCM at whatever sampling rates you like.
I will say that all of these dacs will sound amazing to you depending on finding the complimentary sampling rate and file type.
With Jriver and now Roon you have that freedom
Viva la difference and happy listening to all!
Troy
Audio Doctor
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Ctsooner, I hate to disagree with you but I must. All systems are NOT synergistic.
We have seen way better results in some instances of using a tube preamp with a solid state amp sometimes from different companies.
We have also seen that sometimes too much of one companies products can tilt the sound in an unfavorable way while in some instances company A's amp plus company A's preamp does indeed sound better.
As per synergy you would think in our main demo rig that the T+A preamp, plus the T+A amp, plus the T+A reference SACD/CD/Dac would sound the best, after all they are all from the same company and were designed together, yet the Davinci still sounds signigantly better.
So if your point was valid then the all T+A system should sound way better yet it doesn't.
In your case Vandy Treo and Vandy Quattro are voiced similarily same with your friends B&W, if you for example moved from Vandy to Magico, or Vandy to Rockport, or Vandy to Rahido you would probably not be digging the combo with Ayre.
The Vandy/Ayre combo works at the Vandy's tend to be a bit on the overally warm side with the Ayre's being a bit lean. So the combo works beautifully which is the defination of synergy.
We tried many brands of expensive reference gear because they did not work well with some of our speakers. For example we tried the Thrax gear which was fantastic stuff, and CJ, and Devialet and none sounded as good as the T+A gear on both our Polymer speakers as well as the Personas.
When we had the Scaenas the CJ combo was magical and sounded better then our reference solid state Chord stuff at that time.
So synergy is when you find a set of speakers, electronics, digital, cables power conditioning etc that work together to create a sound that you find that works to your particular taste and sonic expectations.
The main reason for why so many people flip their gear is they do not know how to create synergy, when sometimes just changing cables or adding a few things can make a system come alive.
Troy and Dave
Audio Doctor
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We are the dealer for Matt, and we were also concerned after reading the computer audiophile post.
We did contact the owner Larry Ho, who was out of the country and he is aware that there have been some problems with production and is working to fix some of these issues. Part of the problems they have been having is getting some of their suppliers to deliver consistent boards.
The boards they are using in some of their products are difficult to build and this is leading to delays as well as shortages.
On a positive note people who have actually heard the Davinci including the older versions have stated it is the best digital they have ever heard.
In our tests the Davinci was substantially better than a very well rated $25k dac that uses some of the most advanced technology in the industry the issue with LH Labs has been their limited production capabilities, as well as getting good sub assemblies.
We have also been having withdrawal symptoms, once you have heard a Davinci it is intoxicating and is so musical resolving that it is very hard to listen to anything else. Our new MK 2.5 dual dac is also waiting for one of these new boards.
The unfortunate nature of many of the small companies is that they can suffer from similar issues, some of the larger ones have also had giant issues, Krell almost went away same as Levinson, Classe is also having some development issues with new products. Spica died, Infinity died from what they were, and so on and so on.
Dave
Audio Doctor NJ |
Nitewullf There are two dacs which are awesome in that price range. One is the awesome T+A Dac 8DSD which for $4,200.00 is just plain outstanding, I know it is not a ladder dac but nonethess wow if you feed it via a computer with upsampled pcm to DSD 256 or 512 it produces a holographic, totally musica sound. This is the dac that we use most of the time when demoing our Legacy Signatures that you so love. The other is the Aqua Hifi Lasca which we have a Demo that would make the piece affordable and that is a Ladder Dac, and it is also upgradable via replaceable boards. The Aqua gear is just exceptionally musical and is very involving, with a liquid midrange as the La Scala uses tubes, the fact that Aqua offers up grades and is an evolving platform to me would make that dac very interesting compared to the Metrum which does make nice sounding musical products. http://www.aquahifi.com/la_scala.htmlhttp://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/06/next-level-aqua-hifi-formula-la-scala-mkii-w-telefunken/http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.htmlDave owner Audio Doctor |
Mitch2 which version of the La Scala did you have Version 1 or Version 2?
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Mitch2 thanks. The Aqua La Scala is exceptionally musical with big images and a warm rich punchy sound.
The Mk 2 Optilogic is supposed to extend the treble detail and increase the openess and sound staging while still retaining the overall superb quality of the La Scala.
We are selling our Lascala to move to a Formula, so if you know of anyone looking for a great dac driven by a little old audiophile to listen to Gregorian chants on Sundays let me know.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ |
Hello Richfield_Hunter,
This is Dave from Audio Doctor the dealer that sold Matt the Davinci 2.
Believe it or not you may still not have gotten everything out of your Davinci 2.
We just did a demo of the Wireworld Platinum Ethernet Cable and wow did it make a difference going into a server so if you are not using a state of the art ethernet cable that will give you more depth and a wider soundstage.
The Baetis server we are using is I think a different level than the N10, also we would need to know about your power cables and conditioning.
We use the Enklein David power cables and they are amazing.
Other tips is vibration isolation we have our Davinci on a Stillpoints platform and all of these tips plus a state of the art USB again so far the best we have tested the Enklein Trek a pure silver hand made USB cable and you might be surprised to see the Davinci pull ahead of even a fantastic vinyl rig.
As you keep on working with the Davinci it just keeps on revealing more and more information and boy does it sound like the best vinyl rigs.
Congratuations.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Matt as you know I have a very nice Stillpoints demo rack if you want one.
I still want to bring over the Baetis to do a comparison to the Memory player.
Dave
Audio Doctor NJ |
There are a few new racks that are getting some play their is the Modulum from Canada that is cost effective and very pretty. Also the new Rogez from Poland I think is supposed to be a very cool rack.
We were also looking at the Artensia the only issue with them is their size and weight which is kind of a problem for some people.
We are also searching for a new series of racks for the showroom, the issue we have is we need a lot of them. UGH!
Dave
Audio Doctor NJ |
Modulum is using a very novel idea of using a moving damper that is designed to flex and absorb energy the Tenor guys are raving over them.
Dave Lalin
Audio Doctor NJ |
Mike why if you havnen't heard the Davinci MK II compared to the MSB would you make such a statement and at $90k vs a $35k Dac that kind of puts the Dac at a crazy different price range.
Almost no one has a MK II as Larry HO the owner of LH Labs has not had the time to over see all the units coming in for the upgrade, also they moved to a new factory, and retweeked the boards on the MK II is some of the reasons for the delays.
There are only a handful of the current dual dacs out in the market.
We had the Dual Dac MK 1 our new MK II is finally going to be shipping. The Dual Dac especially the MK II is one of the most extraordinary pieces of digital we have ever heard, and that includes the DCS.
As per the Memory Player vs the Baetis vs the SGM that would be an intereting thing, we took our Baetis to a guy in Boston with Rockports and did a quick comparison to the MP vs the Baetis it wasn't conclusive but the Baetsis did seem to sound as good for a lot less.
As per a major rack upgrade, I am a big believer that an uber rack will take Matts system to the next level.
We are looking at the Artensias, the Modulum and the Rogoz as all possible contenders, never loved the HRS and the SRA stuff is also crazy expensive. Still love the Stillpoints just don't know if any of these newer companies products are better or are more cost effective.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Mike I was not trying to start a fight with you, there is no denying that an MSB Select, a DCS stack and a few others are state of the art in digital, we have the same opinion as Matt does that the Davinci is a very special dac, and that it does certain things that are just spooky, and the dac is very musical, and well balanced yet it still has excellent resolution.
The Davinci deserves to be ranked amoung the very best digital front ends, because it is. The only issue is the rarity of the dac. LH Labs is making most of their money these days as being the sole supplier for Tesla automobiles on board entertainment systems. Larry is working on a number of interesting new products as well.
We just got in the Aqua Forumla and we know you really thought highly of that dac, how many hours did yours take before it came alive? Did you use HQ player with the Formula.
Are you using the Artenisia racks now did you compare them to the Stillpoints?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Nitewolf, the Davinci has two completely separate dacs in one chassis.
There is a pure resisitor ladder as well as a sigma delta engine for DSD and both enginges sound fantastic.
There is a lot of innovative ideas in the Davinci and the excution is flawless the entire chassis is cut out of two billets of aluminu, the output stage runs in pure Class A it actually gets hot, so they are running some actual juice through it.
As per Kickstarter most of the people got their products, LH labs is slow as hell in delivering product especially new products.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Imgoodwithtools, we had a customer bring in his Berkley Ref 1 which I know in'st the latest howerver we compared it to our Davinci Dual Dac MK I which isn't as good as the newer MK II. So it was a fair title match up last series of each head to head.
The Davinci was signifigently more like an analog source with a bigger soundstage and a more holographic sound stage. The Berkly was superb I think we also compared both to the EMM Labs Da 2 the new $25k one, and both of these dacs were better than the Emm.
You should listen to one if you can, they are very rare dac's but as Matt will attest to one of the most remarkable pieces of digital out there.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Does Amara have a Windows version?
I think the memory player can only run Jriver.
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Hey Matt, thanks again, for the demo and the video it was totally fun.
Reverendo, there is no update to the 20G as it is a much more sophiticated product, and it is really mind blowing, probably the most advanced and best sounding usb cable on the market and considering that some high end cables are $4k and above the 20G is a bargain.
If you think about it the concept of jitter elimination/reclocking in one continous cable without having to use all sorts of multiple devices and the cost of having to purchase two high end usb cables makes a lot of sense.
Please PM if you want to work on a trade in.
The combination of the Baetis and the Davinci was spectacular the Baetis was brought over was using a less powerful less advanced external power supply with the bigger supply the sound should be even better.
Considering this is the rig I run at the shop it wasn't a surprise.
The battle of the server titans and usb cables was totally illuminating, and anyone who thinks that all severs or a stock computer sounds the same would have his mind blown.
As Matt said the difference between the Wireworld USB which we sell and it is really good vs the Enklein and then the Light Harmonic 20G with the active circuitry was mind blowing.
The LH 20G is probably one of the biggest improvements you can make in a system for the least amount of money if you have a $10k dac or so in a high resolution system then this little $2k cable addition is going to make a rather large improvement in your systems overall clarity and soundstaging.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Hello Matt,
I have to say I am not surprised by the HRS vs the Symposisum.
We did a shoot out of the HRS Damping plate $1,800.00 which is the actual shelf of the HRS stands vs a Stillpoints spider platfom which cost $800 and we had the exact same experience. The Stillpoints seemed to make everything more in focus and improved the micro dynamics over the HRS.
So for years we were working with the Stillpoints products, now it seems that there racks have gone up in price so much we are looking at alternatives
We are looking to add an Osris rack to our reference room as it seems to be one of the best designed racks out there and the price seems reasonable compared with some of the other reference racks so we should talk.
Just got our Davinci 2 and are burning it in, wow, is it incredible.
Love to catch up.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Also totally agree with you on the Isoacoutics stuff, just amazing for the money.
Did an initial test of three pucks at $60 for the entire set vs a set of the older Stillpoints which were over $300 and we thought the Isoacoustics were just as good if not better.
We were telling people about these findings months ago.
The pucks under a set of bookshelf speakers too a set of ATC and Elac to another level.
It amazes us how some people on these forums think vibration isolation doesn't or can't make a difference on anything other than a turntable.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Snopro, you are not correct on the Forumla vs the Terminator. The Formula was recently updated with new technology and Sarjan was running the original Formula. When Six Moons reviewed the Terminator vs the Formula this was the original Optologic board and not the newer XHD version which dramatically raises the level of the Forumla to nearly the best available changes include:
• Proprietary hybrid 2-stage XMOS xCore XE216 FPGA • Fully-floating (isolated) USB decoding and clock generation by FPGA with proprietary code • High quality, long life, low noise parts and modular design that distinguish aqua – acoustic quality equipment • Sample rate in “Bit Perfect” up to 768 kHz PCM and quad rate DSD (DSD256) • Latest version of customised XMOS X Core Driver on Windows OS (W7, W10) • Native X Core Audio on Mac OS (Bit Perfect) • USB Audio 2.0 operation on Linux (Bit Perfect)
This update has required significant optimisation of code for the main FPGA of R2R ladder DAC which has improved sound quality.
The new hybrid USB XMOS xCore 200 (dual core) FPGA circuitry enables the high-resolution file playback up to 768kHz PCM and up to DSD256 (Quad DSD) One point that is being ommitted is long term design viability, the Aqua is comptely FPGA implimented and can easily morph into the lastet technolgy from a company that has been in business making award winning dacs for 8 years.
With that being said, we have both the Formula and the Davinci, the Davinci is in another league over the Formula and it is not even close we have the latest Formula Optologic XHD. We are not denying the buzz on the Terminator, however, there was one review on the Terminator which wasn't so positive, the reviewer liked the dac but not a rave. The T+A Dac 8 DSD especially when fed a DSD 512 signal sounds like most $10k plus dacs, and it costs $4.2k the Dac 8 uses totally different design concepts and isn't as an elaborately constructed piece but boy does it sound good. So yes the Terminator is a very very good dac and it is priced very reasonably, state of the art not quite, great sound for the money probably. The more interesting comparison will be the Davinci 2 Dual Dac vs the Lampy units. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Snopro, listen to a T+A Dac 8 DSD we have found nothing under $10k that can touch it, use a fast Core 7 Computer with Jriver set the program to output 16/44 to DSD 512 and sit back and enjoy. It is freakishly good sounds like a good $10k analog rig.
If you are wondering why the little Dac 8 can beat much larger chasis/more elaborate designs, think of this one, T+A is the largest electronics manufacturer in Germany with a full time engineering staff of 14 and a staff of 110 full time employees, they have the resources to develop completely proprietary technology, the DAC 8 DSD uses both novel filter technology as well as all in house DSD technology that is proprietary and does not relay on a chip based solution. The T+A is similar to a Chord Dave but is warmer and a bit more engaging.
The Terminator does seem like an excellent piece on paper and I am sure there are people who will dig its presentation, but there are other issues with a tiny unknown company such as driver compatibility, long term reliability as well.
We had an earlier Forumla it was good but still lacked some air, the new XHD version is very analog like, one of the more critical guys in audio Mike Lavigne who has a $400k + system was using the Formula before trading it out for a $90k MSB Select Dac, so we know the Formula is ranked way up there with dac's like the Lampy, the Formula is very, very, musical but doesn't dig out the last bit of air and resolution of the Davinci.
The Davinci is the best sounding digital we have yet encountered, it has incredible resolution, a huge soundstage, and a very natural midrange.
Top that off with a modular design, that can be upgraded and some really outside the box thinking and parts selection, and you have a true challenger to some of the best sounding digital out there, the only downside, very hard to get, and expensive.
We didn't want to get one but after hearing one clobber the $25k Meitner Da2 which was a superb dac it was love at first listen.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
No Dlcockrum, we haven't heard the Terminator, if it sounds close to a Formula, and then the Formula is then improved that moves the Forumula out ahead doesn't it?
There is no denying that the Terminator may be one of the best affordable dac's but it is hardly cheap at nearly $6k that doesn't mean it isn't a fantastic deal, but as mentioned there are other inexpensive dac's that come close to the best of a much higher price point, the T+A is one, so the the Schitt Yaggy, and I am sure there are others.
The difference between a reference product and one that comes close is difference by degree, and just because something is extremely well made doesn't guarantee you good sound. The Meitner DA2a $25k dac was very well made and employed unique technology from one of the best minds in digital Ed Meitner it still didn't sound as good as the LH Labs or the Formula.
The Esoteric D03 that we had was a 60lb pure dac at $23k and the $15k Meitner Dac 2xse was better sy $8k less.
The point we are making is that there are plenty of storries of great affordable gear that comes close but still fails to exactly emulate some of the best digital.
Mke Lavigne was mentioned as he was an early Aqua adopter and loved the sound on a very expensive system it took a $90k dac to better the Formula for Mike it took a $35k dac in our shop to better the Formula.
Is any piece of hardware worth it? That remains to be seen value is what we place on an item, a Diamond is a hunk of compressed coal why does a stone nicely polished and cut sell for $30k?
You miss the point of our last post, we are not saying anything negative, about Denifrips, it is just that they are very new to the scene and are relatively unproven. Their long term stability is unknown, these are all relevent factors.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Charles1Dad, you may not believe it and say that it is hype but we have compared the Dac 8 to more expensive dacs and when driven correctly the sound is really awesome.
If you check out John Darko's review of the Dac 8 Mr. Darko compared a $4k T+A Dac 8 to the DCS Rossiini and a couple of other expensive dac and his conclusion was that the Dac 8 came quite close.
We do sell way more expensive dacs in our shop it is just how good the dac 8 can sound is why we recommend it so highly, and at this point we have never heard a $4k dac with this kind of sound quality.
A Dac 8 DSD vs the Denefrips would be very interesting.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Interesting CT, except how was the T+A being fed? If you look at Computer Audiophile’s section on the Dac 8 you will find that there are many people who have findings about the Dac 8 that mirror our own.
The common thread is that the Dac 8 needs to be fed quad rate DSD to experirence the full magic that the Dac is capable of. Many computers will not do DSD 512 as they are not fast enough to do the processirng.and most stand alone servers like the Lumin and Aurrender products don't do up or crossconversion at all.
The Dac 8 is acutally a far more advanced Dac then the Ayre which uses a single ESS Dac chip to do the conversion for both DSD and PCM processing. then going to a Ayre FPGA filter.
The Dac 8 is one of the very few dacs that does not turn PCM into DSD or DSD into PCM. The Dac 8 actually has two completely seprate decoding engines, one for each format. The DSD engine is the more special of the two, as the DSD engine uses all proprietary T+A decoding technology vs the PCM engine which uses four Burr Brown Dac chips in a summed operaton.
Wiling to bet you didn’t hear the Dac 8 DSD being fed that kind of playback material.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Hello Doc, long time no talkie. A couple of points we now have a Innous Statement on display and it is magical sounding. We are also waiting on a T+A HV 3100 SDV which may be the first digital front end to exceed the Light Harmonic. https://www.ta-hifi.de/en/audiosystems/hv-series/sd-3100-reference-streaming-dac-2/The SDV 3100 is a technlogical tour de force in terms of digital engineering and uses all proprietary engineering including the world’s first native USB input board that can handle DSD 1024 or double rate DSD 512 which is the highest sampling freqency ever offered in a dac that can handle this frequency without using an internal upsampler. You can choose if you want to listen to PCM or DSD files rather than having the Dac convert one to another. What makes this dac special is a number of features: 1: NO XMOS USB board, the XMOS USB boards can not natively handle the highest rate USB signal for DSD 1024, so T+A built their own. 2: In house DSD decoding engine which can hadle DSD 1024 3: In house PCM decoding engine which can decode PCM 768k 4: Complete galvanic isolation of the digital input stage to the output stage, as well as complete isolation of the digtial and analog stages of the dac, including dual power cords separating the two stages from cross contamination. 5: Native streaming client 6: Apt X Blu tooth 7: Optional Analog preamplifier stage based on the $18k T+A P 3000 HV preamplifier a $2,500.00 option 8: Pure Class A headphone stage. 9: HDMI input and outputs for connection to a video system or video sources. 10: All aluminum chassis construction Pretty cool eh? With the Memory Player or The Baetis Reference running HQ player you can take a native digital stream and upconvert to DSD 1024 which should be very special. Would you be interested in testing one if we do indeed get one? Other cool new toys the Critical Mass Centerstage footers which are mind bogglingly effective. Love to catch up it has been awhile. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Light Harmonic Davinci, T+A and Critical Mass dealers |
