Phil,
You caught my attention with your excellent description of the smallish but potentially significant differences between Druid and Essence which articulated my views on them better than I ever could. I would be happy to buy Essence but my inclination has always been toward Druid. I have always been especially taken by the presence of the Druid. The sense that a horn player is in the room and standing thus high and really moving air at you.
Bearing that in mind the Soul seems on paper to be right up my street. I need to hear a pair, likely to be mid June in the UK, but at the price I'm almost tempted to just plunge in there. My reservations are that, whilst the loss of a foot of height plays well with Mrs. H, how does the speaker perform in terms of image height especially as the frd is now below the tweeter? Does it still give that great sense of presence, which was the loss in the Essence for me? Does it still have the lovely mud band if the Druid?
Essentially I guess I'm asking if it really is Druid plus or is it just a variation on Essence or Presence?
Cheers,
Mike |
Phil,
Thank you kindly for the response. Between the stuff on here and email responses from Sean Casey I think we're looking at a sale in due course. Looks like I got sale price too.
You can't imagine how annoyed I was when Druid discontinued. I could have gone for Presence but the grill was a deal breaker in our lounge. I like the Essence but mourned the loss of presence. I'll not be able to afford the Essence barring a miracle so Zu have rather made my month.
Mike |
And of course I missed out the obvious question. Do you plan to replace your Druids?
Mike |
Phil,
You make a compelling case for the Soul Superfly. May I ask how many hours listening time you had with them when you formed your judgement?
Mike |
To be frank the only thing holding me back from a punt on the 60 day return right now is that there just aren't enough images of the Soul/Superfly to get an idea of finishes. I'm sure that will change soon. Least I hope it will.
Mike |
Phil,
No concerns on the quality of the finish. Zu finishes are amongst the very best I hsve ever seen. It's more that it's hard to visualise on a smaller floorstander than we're used to from them.
For instance, I found the piano black very old fashioned looking on the Druid and it would have been too much in my lounge on the Essence. I suspect it may have a greater appeal on the Superfly because of size and shape, and it will match the Pioneer tv beautifully. Howver, short of spending a while with Photoshop, I need to see it. Zu need to get some varied pics up asap imo.
Mike |
I got the email too. Non-plodded as I have my order in for Superfly but... could it just be a slightly more organised version of the Superfly release for the.... Soul. The baths add up - originally pitched @ £1,800 and now with $800 off. Same differential as Superfly.
Or... |
Some of us have to factor in the WAF regardless of our own views on the subject. Left to my own devices it'd be Ferrari Red but there are other considerations. I've owned one pair of speakers for 20 years and my intent is that this next pair will be in situ for a similar period. Will I be in the same house with the same decor by then? Who knows? What I do know is that my hobby is indulged subject to WAF and that I myself want something acceptable to look at when they're not playing music. As soon as Zu get more pictures up and, better still, I get to dem a pair then I'll make a decision but not before.
Mike
PS: Phil, what sort of music have you listened to on the Soul and what insights did it give you? |
I suspect my patience and resolve are amongst my mist annoying personality traits :) - even for me. This is killing me. If these speakers do what the Druid and Presence do then they're clearly a keeper. Phils posts have been enormously informative and have an authority and credibility to me as his description elsewhere and here of the differences between Essence and Druid chime so closely with what so many others have experienced. It's easy to forget that essentially the number of people who have heard them appears to be in single figures (at least on here) and so some caution needs to be exercised as speakers are such a personal thing.
Bring it on Zu.
Mike |
Can we just clarify the maths as those figures don't tally with quotes I've had from Zu in the past for bringing into the UK. The costs quoted on their site don't appear to equate with that either. If I'm wrong then cosmic carbon it is :)
Mike |
Yay, finally a second opinion :)
Look forward to regular updates Gopher.
Mike |
Thanks Gopher. Keep us all posted. I'm especially interested in how the mid band develops as that, for me, was the great strength of the Druids. The sense of air being physically moved when a sax or a trumpet was blown; that sense you were hearing a real musician and not just a facsimile.
I can't be bothered to trawl through earlier posts but had you heard the Druid or not?
I'm hopeful a UK pair will be here soon for demo!!!
Mike |
Gopher,
Thanks for that. Viewed on an iphone first of all and they looked poor quality. Just got home and, hey, they look rather good. Looking at those I must say they look rather dinky rather than awkward as they do in the Zu images thusfar. They also look rather unequivocally grey. I fear cosmic carbon has been rather over sold :).
Anyway, thanks for that and keep the feedback coming.
The only thing Phil hasn't come back on is the type of music he listened to. It would be really good, if you can tear yourself away, to hear about what you're listening to and what they're doing to it. Where readers recognise music they know it can really help fill in the missing pieces of the jigsaw.
James, we don't do sleepovers since the eldest went to Uni. and her brother (3 at the time) asked when he could have a sleepover!!!
Mike |
Me too but I'm inclined to hear a demo before drawing ant conclusions on that. There will always be flaws but individuals have to weigh up whether they outgun the plussea for themselves.
There may have been a nicer way of asking though :)
Mike
Phil,
Excellent list of music. Thank you. I may have more questions :) |
I'll be running my Superfly with SS Naim and will report back when I have them.
I'm wondering whether Zu will quietly drop the basic Soul now that Omen is here.
Mike |
CT,
Any chance you could make your two cents a dollar or more and give us some more detail? I appreciate you're not into the techy side and feel that's often a positive. Why should you hsve to be? However, when you're cranking them up what are you hearing? What are they doing differently to what you've heard before?
Also, how/where have you positioned them etc?
In a way it's all boring stuff but for those of us on another continent then it paints another piece of the picture.
Interested parties will note Gopher has gone AWOL. Presumably he's been kidnapped by music.
Mike |
HiFin,
I've heard Defs, Presence, Essence and Druids. Avonessence also had Druids and Essence with Naim.
FWIW. I think you're in for a treat. Naim gear works incredibly well with Zu and those who think the world begins and ends with tubes would do well to not dismiss solid state as not having the same synergy. The interesting thing is that the lesser speakers work better IMHO and they can work even better when you take the myriad of power supplies out of the equation.
The best single dem I have ever had was Druids on the end of a bare cdx2, 202 and 200. I can tell you that I was utterly rooted to the spot for around ten minutes listening to a genre of music that leaves me utterly cold (modern blues) and I was not alone. Must have been eight of us in there stood or sat and we all felt the same, which rather gives the lie to some concerns expressed on here about dispersion and the sweet spot.
Presence pulled off the same trick but Essence only really delivered when a cds3 was added, and the latter is not to my taste at all.
My biggest regret of recent years is that I didn't simply sell my hi-cap, xps2 and napsc to part fund getting some Druids. A recent near three week dem of Essence at home taught me a lot about acoustics and the flaws in both my system and the speaker. I believe theres little better at the price and I was heading for a purchase until Zu delivered the Superfly. If it is any way the true successor to the Druid as Phil asserts then I am at the end of my particular journey for some years to come.
My suspicion is that the Superfly will drag levels of performance out of the Supernait that will leave fellow owners a little bewildered. Being a cautious type by nature I still want a home dem but boy have I come close to cracking this weekend :)
Please report back on how you get on.
Mike |
I must admit I have become a little disappointed with this thread. As has been observed on another forum (Google it) this thread has become a little bit of a p•••••g contest. There is from an outsiders perspective the irony that there is a debate going on about attracting non-audiophiles into the tent whilst in the midst of s discussion almost guaranteed to put them off.
FWIW I do not consider myself an audiophile. My first system was based on ignorance and from reading reviews. I struck lucky with two thirds of it and five years later sorted the other third through making the same mistake. I now have source and amps sorted and simply need speakers that produce the best from it. Little I have read here beyond Phils description of the differences between Soul and Druid would make me consider the Soul.
The problem is perhaps that people see audiophile as something to aspire to. Ignorance is clearly not bliss but generally you find that people don't use their technical knowledge to solely their own benefit but to also engage in the aforesaid type of contest.
Describing people with 2k who don't care about ghe other stuff in the terms they've been described on here won't bring them into the camp. It'll do the exact opposite. The reality is that most who spend on audio do so for a myriad of reasons that are beyond classification. Insulting any of them is unhelpful.
I have been doing this for 20 years. I've spent 9 of them listening to music and maybe have some clue about what I'm talking about for the last three.
It kind of said it all on here that whilst you were all engaged in bot talking about the speaker it tool the manufacturer to point out to Gopher that an amp is not a priority at this stage.
Anyone want to talk about ghe Soul Superfly now? :)
Mike |
Zanon,
Gotta agree with Phil here. There appears to be some misunderstanding as his posts have been crystal clear in terms of their language and helpful in clarifying the sound of the Superfly.
Mike |
Zanon,
I've been here for the whole thread and, to repeat, I and others have seen nothing contradictory in Phils posts. Occasional clarifications have been required and have been generously forthcoming and a model of clarity. Your concern about being accused of taking stuff out of context is well founded. You have either obviously misunderstood Phil or quoted him absolutely out of context further deraling the thread in the process to no great gain for anyone including your good self. It really is, er, just you.
If you want to talk about sound and not gear then it does occur to me that perhaps a thread about a specific piece of gear was one you should have left alone.
Still, Phil has explained himself most ably for the rest of us and his posts on here are one of many reasons I have now placed an order.
Phil - I presume you detect a slight difference in the mid range between Soul and Druid that some night describe as a decrease in euphony but you suggest is just a reflection of their accuracy. I must say that I loved the perceived euphony of the Druid. Are you saying that I might feel it has gone or just lessened slightly? I'm just trying to clarify as I associate that euphony with the phenomenal presence possessed by the Druids; the sense of Ben Webster blowing a real horn stood in front of you. Earlier, much earlier in the thread, you suggested the Soul was the true successor to the Druid and i understood that to mean mostly in terms of the mid.
Apologies if Zanon now leaps on this! :)
Venicelake - I entirely agree. When my Soul Superfly arrive I shall spend some time settling them in and then perhaps post in detail.
In the meantime I'm a bit disappointed Zu can't muster something up pics wise even if it's just from the factory floor or something a bit arty. I can see where they're coming from but personally I am craving!!!
Gopher - we need more feedback.
Mike |
Thanks Phil and Gopher. Most useful.
Phil - yes that sorts it for me. In retrospect what I loved most about the Druids was that realness. The dark sound as you put it was something new to me but I grew to love it because it never got in the way of that realness. Having heard the Presence deliver much the same with perhaps less euphony then I doubt I'll miss it that much.
Gopher - your post is very encouraging. Your first posts on arrival of the Superfly were positive but a little vague. Now it's as though the speaker has allowed you to see what it's doing better in every area without any detriment to the music.
I've got at least s month to wait for my pair in the UK. it's going to be a long month :)
Mike |
Thanks Gopher,
I'm always amazed how many people post about new kit and are critical of it, only to mention in passing that they're running something else in too. Nice to see some caution followed by detailed description.
Once I have my Superfly I'm going to burn them in and experiment with position. Then I intend to post extensively on the outcome. However, i'm hoping to be so otherwise occupied that I can't get out of my chair ;) I'll try my best though.
Mike |
Audiofeil,
Surely the whole point of audio forums like this is to assist in refining the use of subjective language. If you don't have subjective language then you're left with what? Measurements? It hardly needs saying that we don't measure audio by objective standards so what else are we left with?
The reality is that just because has different meanings to different people does not in itself render the term invalid. Pain is also subjective. Does that mean it's nit there or that some commonality cannot be found?
When Phil talked of the darkness of Druids I knew what he meant and he explairned it further for those who didn't. I have Naim kit which in the past has been all about PRAT although arguably less so nowadays. These terms are all subjective. What else would you replace them with to articulate the strengths and wesknessesof kit?
Mike |
David,
Interesting post as is your other post on the subject. I actually think it just is what it is and if there is a demand then other threads will thrive.
However... cracking photos. Convinced me I was right to not go for cosmic carbon but lovely to look at nevertheless.
Mike |
Phil, or indeed others who may be able to comment. One of the things I haven't seen here is how people might define the Superfly in relation to the Presence. Anyone care to comment?
Mike |
Phil,
Thanks very much for that. Having heard every Zu floorstander I entirely agree with your descriptions and am very much looking forward to my Superfly. I heard enough of Druids to have bought them were it not for the Fun Prevention Officer demanding a robust dishwasher at the time. I cursed Zu for ending production when they did :)
I do wonder in retrospect whether the Druids denoed endlessly by my dealer were 4.08 or earlier as, to me, they very much retained that euphonic darkness. I must check that out with them sometime. Heard the Presence there too and was equally mesmerised by it although the cost was even more prohibitive to me at the time.
Anyway, thank you very much for sharing. It's been extremely reassuring in confirming that I may just have purchased a speaker for life. That was my plan for the Druid and that's my plan for Superfly all being well.
Mike |
Yes, I must say that I can recall a bunch if cynical men of varying (but not that varying) ages listening to Hugh Masakela on the Presence. At the end there was just a silence and someone quietly commented that that was as good as they'd heard anywhere to hushed agreement. That was the only time I'd heard Presence and I was mightily impressed, however, the key I think was that I'd already heard rhe Druids and the Druids were slow as stated to reveal their charms. Indeed it was only when replaced by Sonus Faber as I recall that the penny dropped.
Interestingly, we also heard them when they were off ie not quite happy with their position or possibly being shunted around. Had I heard just that I would have fallen into the okay but nothing special camp. However, later in the day they settled and for me were nothing less than mesmerising.
Bring on the Superfly :)
mike |
Nah, surely the anticipation is always the best bit until they really settle down! Or was it Tom Petty who said that the waiting is the hardest part.
Must admit you've reminded me that longer term I may experiment with taking the Naim power supplies out of the loop. My recall is that the Druids upstairs at Audio Counsel were incredible, utterly compelling, on a bare cdx2, 202, 200, which is my system minus power supplies. Weren't the Presence on the end of the sake thing? Thus my calculations re: Headline, Hi-Cap, XPS2 and indeed possibly bodily organs!
I wonder if anyone here can explain this phenomenon of the improvement you get when you remove Naim power supplies?
Mike |
So the questions are surely:
Would you feel the sane if you'd paid $2,600?
How big is your room?
How is it furnished?
What do you think is missing from the top end and what would we have to pay to get that?
Sorry, for all these questions but I'm an impattirnt purchaser waiting for my own and I am craving detail and pics from others.
Actualt, how about some pics :)
Mike |
Ha,
I can assure you little will reduce my hard on right now :) Mind you, you people across the pond do seem prone to premature ejaculation. If I'd had a speaker two weeks I'd be letting it bed in and seeing how things warm up rather than thinking of changing caps :)
Thanks for all that Kemp88. It's all adding to the picture.
I'm wondeing if we can tempt some of the purchasers below your number to step out of the darknesss.
Mike |
Mrs. Gopher needs to post those pictures and we need to hunt down and stalk all the other owners.
Mike |
Hi folks.
Ever since I heard the Druids I Googled loads of images and really struggled with the piano black and silver trim. It was obviously just me but I found it looked a little old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that in many ways but it just didn't do anything for me.
I fell in love with the black trim and have decided to gp for maple with black. No idea how it will look but goodness knows there's enough speakers in maple with black trim and if it looks have as good as those then I will be very happy with that.
Let's face it. Zu speakers are finished magnificently so it should be impressive.
Must admit I can't take my eyes off David's pics. They're very sexy. |
Good to see more pictures but what's up with you people? You scared to go round the back or something? :)
Suspect there will be quite a few of us who recognise real world rooms like that. Good to see and, yes, actually the brown looks good.
My maple is wood rather than gloss or matte after much domestic negotiation. She's convinced it will look like the (supposedly maple) fireplace. I'm convinced it will look like the copper beech Hutter Racktime.
I shall post pictures and sound reports when the speakers arrive, however, I long ago abandoned any pretence at real photography when I acquired an iPhone. I suppose I could be sad; film it with the Flip HD and take some stills off of that.
Mike |
Cwlondon,
I'm with Gopher. I assume you meant posts rather than threads.
I can't imagine that anyone here is affiliated with Zu. The reality is that this is a high efficiency; high impedance speaker that appears to solve a lot of issues for a lot of people interested in high efficiency; full range; A small size floorstandes.
Moreover there is a backlog on orders through word of mouth and reviews have been delayed as a consequence. Thus they would have little to gain right now by pushing stuff online
Mike |
It's all gone very quiet. No more owners? No more photos? What's a boy to do? |
We've just been debating that in the UK. Could be that Zu is building in a shipping cost but last time this happened it was a move from direct sales to shops so it's intriguing to say the least. Email to Zu UK rep and Utah is on its way!
Worth mentioning that there are new images up there too albeit that one looks badly shopped.
Mike |
The 6 moons review has been binned. He's taken his bat home because he couldn't get a review pair soon enough. No one else seems to have done the same so there may be something else to it. I emailed to query and got a response which hasn't been published on the site but there was a hint of arrogance IMHO in the suggestion, however accurate, that he had a role in breaking Zu worldwide. It inferred, perhaps unintentionally, that there ought to have been different treatment. Zu however appear to rightly be prioritising customer orders which appear to have considerably exceeded even their best hopes so I for one am quite comfortable with that.
However, I've still not got my pair... |
Srajen,
Apologies if wires have gotten crossed. No offence intended.
I was talking to a couple of friends about this last night and I think zu are going to need to act quickly to put this to bed.
One friend noted that they were behaving exactly like a company with excellence in production but perhaps not marketing vacillating between direct sealing dealerships. Next step will be to outsource it.
The reply I had from Gerrit at Zu didn't really enlighten me on why the price rise but, to me, it looks like either the inclusion of first class shipping as you've stated, or, a dealer cut.
Either way, some clarity is urgently required.
I should also add my voice to Fred in saying that I love the reviews. They have been highly influential. I'm still unclear though as to what 6mooons lose b the delay. It's Zu that lose rep rather than 6moons surely and an update to the preview, rather than outright pulling, would surely have been enough for most of us.
Mike |
The Presence was an excellent speaker albeit now discontinued. I believe. Basically more in common with the Defs than the Druid in terms of the bass design so probably sits between Druid and Defs.
Very little to fault it on based on my limited listening experience (part of an afternoon in the company of lots of Zu and Naim gear).
The big issue really was the look. I'm not referring to the triangular shape. More the grill than anything. Made it look very 1950s or art deco and that severely limited the number of homes into which it would be welcomed IMHO especially when combined with the price.
Sufficient reviews around if not exactly an excess. Start with the links on the Zu site.
Mike |
Not sure what you mean George. I have Superfly on order with wood finish (maple); black anodising and Cardas binding posts.
Suspect mine will be lighter than those in the pics.
Mike |
George,
The thing with Zu is that, within reason, any finish is available.
I kind of agree about the Cardas knob in the sense that it's not as user friendly as earlier versions but I do think it's entirely in keeping with the low cost, simple ethos around the Soul, Superfly and Omen.
Mike |
George,
I have no idea. I'm in the UK so the pricing is different anyway.
Mike |
Gopher,
I have already made my choice in the context of having heard Druid, Presence, Essence and Defs. Defs too expensive for me. Presence ditto and an odd look. Essence lovely but a bit too hi-fi (oh noo!) and with some cuppiness in the vocals. Druids - perfect in size and sound for my room and system (well maybe a bit tall). So, all that said, the Superfly suits me down to the ground in terms of being smaller yet better than the Druid from accounts so far.
What I'm not getting is, unless you are absolutely strapped for cash or unable to save, what would help you decide between Omen and Soul or indeed Superfly. My assumption is that the Omen will be slightly less dynamic and the driver switch will maybe impact on sound dispersion. The internal cabling may also tweak the "house sound" but none of these? to me, make Thr choice clear cut.
So, interesting to see how it's all going to pan out.
Incidentally, given that this is s thread about Superfly, I think it's about time we had a comprehensive update on how yours are doing. I've read plenty about amp changes but how do you currently feel bout the speakers?
Mike |
"blank statements" - well I could talk all night about each Zy speaker but a balance has to be struck and my statement has to be seen in the context of other statements I have made here on Essence re: the two different perceptions of it that exist.
FWIW, at my dealer we worked our way from my Naim amps and power supplies to what used to be owned by Avonessence. As we moved up instruments became much more natural but lost a little PRaT. Fine for some but not for me. What we could not lose regardless of amp was a certain cuppiness on female vocals. Two people disliked it. One was okay with it. It has been noted in reviews of the Essence so I wasn't just imagining it.
Other things do come into play though. When on demo in my own space the vocals were less cuppy but were recessed. It could only be fixed by locating them in open space too far into the room to be acceptable.
For many people they do treble more in the expected "hi-fi" way but for just as many the Druid, for but one example, does it more naturally and coherently. Each to their own :) |
I'd liove to read more about the Superfly in the RMAF room to especially in light of the comment they tweeted that it was less than refined and not especially detailed. This doesn't chime with much that's been posted here.
I think I agree with Phil/Cobra's assertion that the Druid images marginally too high, which is why I'm looking forward (still) to my Superfly as it seems obvious that it's a Druid on steroids with a lower image.
I would imagine that the Omen would present smoother again although, as stated, the tweeter below combined with the low height seems likely to create some distinct issues that you'll either be okay with... or not.
Interesting times. |
In the UK Simon handles Zu stuff but he also handles Atma-sphere. When I heard them at a show I was less than impressed but a show is rarely a true measure of any kit. When I get my Superflys, and we're now moving in the sooner rather than later direction, and assuming I like the finish and get through the sale or return period without trauma, I intend to live with them for quite a long time before changing anything. However, I may well look at the Atma-sphere and see if I can get a demo.
Mike |
I'll be hanging mine on the end of Naim kit so that's good news indeed but we're having trouble sourcing Zu stuff in the UK at present and the delay is beginning to hurt. Mind you, have you ever seen a company launch so many new products and a new site all at once. There's certainly an increasing sense if purpose about Zu. |
Well, my matte black Soul Superfly arrived on Wednesday. Let them sit for three days until my dealer could get out and solder some spades and set them up. Really did Littld more than set up and listen.
Will report back at a later date but it is already obvious that they are, as I anticipated, keepers.
Mike |
My 60 days with the Superfly will be up on the 18th of March. Been interesting so far. They're on the back of Naim pre/power and the break in had been slow but steady up until last week. Prior to that they were powerful; lacking a little detail at the very top end; lovely at low volume and the vocals were what I can best describe as distant. They sat very much behind the sound stage and were a little cuppy. Doubtless some of this was because my dealer plonked 'em down; spiked them up and advised to leave well alone to burn in before attempting to position them.
Early decision was that they were keepers without a shadow of a doubt.
Last Sunday/Monday vocals began to come very much on song and detail began to ooze through in large quantities. Then, the decorator arrived!!!
Fairly confident he's not destroyed anything but fair to say that bass power has all but disappeared. This is being attributed to a signIficant drop in temperature. Had some bass back Friday but lacking again today. Have been lacking some upper mids all the way through, possibly as the spikes were set quite high.
So, thought this was the moment to lower the spikes to see if I could re-ignite the burn-in and the bass and maybe up the upper mids. Unfortunately, if I lower the spikes as recommended by Zu there ain't enough thread for the nuts so I've left them be. However, after 5 days I'm beginning to want some actual bass back. Decorator had done by Wednesday so temperature has been normal again since Thursday. Can't believe how much bass I've lost. Unlistenable on occasions. Shrill and horrid.
Anyone else had similar with Zu burn in? I mean it's a quite dramatic loss. There is bass there but it's like a large radio on occasions. |
Phil,
When I say the decorator arrived I simply mean I was having some of the house painted. He had doors and windows open all day so a big temperature drop. Didn't work in the living room at all but had the door open and did go in for a listen each morning as he's a big music fan and into hi-fi too. Can't believe he's done driver damage for example as presumably a lot more than bass would have gone. He certainly hasn't moved them and I should be clear, there is bass there but it's nowhere near what it was.
Yes Naim is SS but they work incredibly well with Zu and prior to getting Superfly I'd heard Druids, Essence, Presence and Definitions on Naim. Have been talking to Avonessence on this and he reckons burn-in can be quite erratic having had Druids and Essence and he found it especially so on the Druids. He thought the temperature drop may be of some significance. I'm deliberately not moving them until I have plenty of hours on them. Been doing 10 hours a day on medium volume since mid January so they've probably got 200-250 hours on top of the factory hours.
Can't see how it can be the bass loading. Would have to have gone on both speakers at once and as I said it has been accompanied by the loss of cuppy vocals and a gain in detail so it's not like the FRD has gone silent.
Further thoughts?
Mike
Any other thoughts. |
