what do you mean with this? that Paul and you listened to two TTs bis a bis with similar tonearm/cartridges at the same sessions/comparisons? Fair question, Raul. One TT, one tonearm, one cartridge, everything identical except the drive systems. We were comparing our tweaked BD to the (then new) Teres rim drive. Switching from one drive to the other took < 30 seconds so it was easy to compare, far easier than comparing cartridges or tonearms. Result: we kept our BD. FWIW, most who made the same comparison on their tables preferred the rim drive. However, those people weren't using our belt tweak because we hadn't published it yet, so their BD wasn't performing like ours. The two people to whom I provided tweaked belts also preferred the BD to the rim drive. Implementation, implementation, implementation. :) *** Tdaudio, The main problem turned out to be intermittent failures in the motor brushes. Very difficult to diagnose. After months of experimentation/verification, Teres found that gold brushes eliminated the problem and performed for the long haul. Ours is still working fine, quite a few years on. Secondarily, Teres tightened the correction threshhold of the motor controller by one order of magnitude. Our platter speed now drifts from 33.33 (45) rpm just 10% as much as it used to before the controller alters voltage to the (DC) motor. This improvement was visible with a good strobe if you watched for some time, but not really audible to me. One would need absolute pitch sensitivity to hear it. |
Dougdeacon: "Implementation, implementation, implementation. :)" I love it when I see people doing experiment like that. My friend owns one of the earliest version of Teres turntable before it went commercial. His motor failed couple years ago so I sent him a Papst motor salvaged from the Empire 208 with pulley diameter slightly tweaked to get accurate speed. It worked well and liked the sound and used it for a more than a year. I suggested him to try driving the Teres platter with a Technics SL-M3 direct-drive turntable via VHS tape. After some tweaks he liked it even better than the Empire that it's quieter and "overall sound wise, image is focused and sharp, more forceful with muscle, very nice." Of course, the downside is that the whole set up takes up much bigger space. Yes, it is indeed quite easy to tell the difference when you only change the drive system. People should try something like this with a belt drive table just to get an idea how much the sound can change with a different motor. It's all reversible so it's harmless. Try it. You might like it. :-) _______ |
Dear Dertonarm, Dear Syntax,
You have " a schöne Rücken"
best @ fun only |
Dear Thuchan, For at least someone who looks even better
than 'us' (the Connery twins) a real suprise to show off with his behind.
Regards, |
I suggested him to try driving the Teres platter with a Technics SL-M3 direct-drive turntable via VHS tape. Sounds like an interesting idea, he gets the speed lock of the DD plus the high mass and resonance sinking of the Teres platter, plinth and bearing. He might get better results with the drive tape we developed. Compared with VHS tape it's less slippery, less elastic and much more resistant to stretching or misforming in any direction. Far better performeer than VHS tape on our TT. Check out this thread. |
1) speed accuracy to the point where its musically relevant has been pretty much solved in any TT costing over $300
2) the average stylus pressure is 1.5 gm. The drag of this on a rotating platter assembly of 2000 gms is negligible; the mass equivalent of a tricycle towed behind a truck
3) vibration isolation/damping is what counts...horizontal vibration in the plane of the stylus vibration will suck transients, detail and bass out of your playback
Direct drives are very difficult to isolate vs belt drives |
Davide 256, 'the average stylus pressure is 1.5 gm.,etc.' I was always wondering about this 'drag issue' more in particular because of the 'vulnerable' stylus cantilever combo. But as a non-technical guy I was not brave enough to say something although I asked the question how this 'vulnerable thing' can cause such problems? Well I was dismissed but not convinced. I still have this 'picture' of an elephant (the platter) and the mouse (the stylus) in my mind. BTW 'my elephant' is 8 kgr.
Regards, |
Davide256: "Direct drives are very difficult to isolate (vibration) vs belt drives" Really? What if there is little or close to no vibration in direct-drives to isolate to begin with? Not sure you understand how direct-drive system works... ______ |
stylus drag is not that much depending on VTF ..... |
Davide256, everything you write is so obvious and logical, yet wrong as regards points one and two. Point 3 does count for a lot too, I grant you.
People who don't like direct drive generally make the same point you have made re "isolation". Usually such persons do not own and have not owned a direct drive turntable. However, if you examine the workings of the best examples, you will see that the platter is part of the motor. Thus "isolation" is really a function of the quality of the bearing, which is an issue of equal significance for BD turntables as well. |
A friend of mine has progressed through a series of decent tts over the past few years. He started by adding a Teres rim drive to his VPI Scout (big difference, even greater than the VPI rim drive), then through a series of DD tables from Technics, Kenwood, and Luxman. More recently he got a Micro Seiki belt drive (not sure of the model but it was not the low end). Speed was not accurate and the MS motor could not be adjusted/repaired to run the proper speed.
On an inspiration he adapted the Teres more with a proper sized pulley (and reversed the rotation direction) to drive the heavy MS platter via a string drive. This is a person who has decades of experience in this hobby and he believes he now has the best tt set up he ever owned. I have not heard every iteration he experimented with but will say with everything from a full symphony crescendo to a sustained piano chord it provides beautiful and believable playback. |
Speed Accuracy done right at Monterrey / California via thread Drive. We have a small black hole in the wall, right behind the turntable. We guess it is a Laser burned one :-) The Return of The Jedi 5....Kings at work |
Dear Syntax: Well Halcro has a wider black hole in the wall, right behind the TT. This TT is a DD 400.00 Victor TT.
So not big deal what you are showing against the humble Victor or my Denon one.
It is not here at speed accuracy/stability where belongs the " secret " for a top quality level that you till today can't even imagine could exist.
Have fun.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
I found a random picture of a turntable online that looks like the kind of thread drive turntable Dertonarm would make. :) Any idea who made that? _______ |
Nice shot Hiho,
Never seen that turntable before?
Intrigued by the armpod cylinder. Seems like it may revolve for different length arms and has multi-way fixing options?
For the record Raul.....the Victor TT-81 was $300.00 but I doubt that it was able to 'burn' a hole in the wall like the TT-101 which cost the princely sum of $1500.00..........the best money spent on my system other than my speakers :^) |
Hiho, that is some german manufactured tt, but I can't remember the name. It is a belt drive however.
Greetings from California,
D. |
Dear Nicola, You disappoint me. I thought you were such a thorough compatriot who lets nothing escape him and now I discover that you did not even 'click' on the video Link I previously attached for the Timeline? In it, you would have seen.......about half way through the video......where he drops the cartridge on the record and immediately.....the speed decreases? And this is only the beginning of the record. Not a heavily modulated passage? Can you imagine what happens with a really heavily modulated passage? And that turntable in the video has a very heavy platter. So here once again.....for your benefit Nicola....I attach the Timeline video for you to study. Please don't disappoint me :-) TIMELINE |
Halcro - you are being disingenuous. The Fat Bob has a stretchy elastic band for a belt and furthermore the drive from the belt is close to the bearing. By not driving the circumference of the platter a lot of purchase from the puny motor is being thrown away. I think you will find this is a classic German pisstake of the Harley Motorcycle, after which it was named, and which you are very lucky if you make it round a decent corner. |
Sorry Dover,
I'm confused?
Are you saying that turntable link by Hiho is the Fat Bob? |
Oh....OK.
You mean it was the Fat Bob in the video of the Timeline?
I agree.......not a very impressive performance for a turntable?
But it makes the point about 'stylus drag' very convincingly? |
Syntax: In the other side why so that big deal with the thread when for so many years it was and is used. My Acoustic Signature TTs only accept thread drive and in my RX5000 I only use thread and hundreds of TTs out there are using thread for drive.
Maybe the thread drive is the new toy for you and as a rockie in that regards you are excited , come down you have to learn to much about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear halcro: 1.5K?, ridiculous against that RX5000 that needs all that stuff to spin on target.
600.00 for my Denon and 250.00 for a Technics 1200 or 500.00 for the SP-10.
As I said: no big deal.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hiho, According to me this is a Brinkmann TT . Probable made for Burmester himself because of the colour. However I have no idea why Burmester is so fond of white colour. I also have no idea why Dertonarm posted such a criptic answer because he must be familiar with this TT.
Halcro, I have no intention at all to burn holes anywhere near my Kuzma. BTW I start my Kuzma manualy in such a way that the speed is perfect from the first groove on. The effect is less wear for the stylus as well for the motors (there are two in my Kuzma,you know ).
Regards, |
Dear Raul - $500 for a properly functioning SP-10MKII (with PS) ?
I will be sure to contact you the next time I buy one.
For the SP10MKII the following public data is published.
Speed fluctuation by load changes: 0% within 5kg-cm.
Can someone technical explain to me what "5kg - cm" really means in laymans terms. Can I really put that much weight in that area and it will stay accurate ?
D, Syntax, Thuchan - Did or do any current BD TT manufactures publish accuracy values ?
I would think that for someone interested in a high end platter/motor setup these types of figures attract the customer.
Like when buying a car.
0 - 100km in 4.5 seconds. :^)
As a customer without ever hearing it - the published numbers are what got me curious in the first place about an SP10mkII.
Cheers |
Revision - apologies - my question about "BD" data should be revised to Belt Drive, String Drive, Thread Drive, VHS Tape Drive, Beta Tape drive, Dental Floss Drive, ... fill in the next one.
... and is open to anyone to respond if you have any real info.
Whatever turns you on as long as you are having fun and have a sense of humor.
When I go to listen to a TT or any audio system I ask the owner to sing me one minute of their favourite song. Its amazing how many really $$$ systems have owners that can not carry a tune.
Well IMO - this thread is about a TT platter/motor being able to do its part in carrying a tune - its the foundation half. The other half is the tonearm/cartridge. A "really" good tonearm will make a cheap cartridge sound really good. Again IMO.
Cheers |
15 years ago I owned a DD Dual Turntable. Made in Germany, the best which was available at that time. I feel a bit guilty now when I read this thread, because I throw it away at the junk yard after listening to something serious. At the moment this is used for Speed control . But I am always ready to learn, in a few days I have the chance to listen to a rock port Sirius (DD) and a better Seiki (Belt) in the same System. The Rockport is a bit more than the accepted 300$ for a good Drive here, but nevertheless it is worth a listen... |
Syntax, you and a few other here own and get to listen to some very nice toys.
When I stop learning this vinyl stuff will no longer be a hobby for me.
FWIW - if anyone wants to know if I can carry a tune please email me - I will send back my phone number. You can call me and I will sing you a song (unplugged).
:^) |
Ct, Altho I am currently a partisan of direct- and idler-drive turntables, I would nevertheless take those data you quoted (0% speed deviation at 5 kg.cm) with a grain of salt. The Technics uses a servo to keep speed stable, but a servo is not perfect in terms of avoiding "micro" changes in speed that it then has to correct for. So "average speed" may indeed not vary, but the devil is in those corrective measures mediated by the servo to keep the speed stable. The jury is out as to whether we can hear that happening. Some claim that they can. BD turntables pose entirely different problems as regards speed stability at the micro level. Some of us can hear that, too. Pick your poison.
kg.cm (kilogram X cm) must be a unit of Work or Energy. Work is defined as Force (F) acting through a distance (s); W = F(s). Kilogram is formally a unit of mass, but by convention we also refer to it as a unit of weight. Weight is mass X acceleration due to gravity (W = m(g)). The analogy to F = ma is obvious. So "weight" is actually an expression of force. That's what they taught me in college. It's a bit confusing, but I think that kg.cm is a unit of Work. (I've just been reading a book about how Einstein interpreted Newton, so I have been thinking about this stuff.) |
Adult persons watching the laser spot on the wall instead of listening to the music. This hobby really become some kind of 'decadent bourgeous inclination' as Lenin would
call it. |
Dear Nandric, focussing the eye on the laser spot frees the mind to set for a kind of "zen meditation" and allows the music to flow directly into the heart and soul of man ....
See - it always depends how you use things ..;-) ..... but I admit being part of the decadent bourgeous inclination of mankind.
After all it took us (mankind) a long way to get here...
Cheers,
D. |
Hmm. Something not mentioned so far with regards to speed stability is soundstage. Anyone who has heard a good tape machine knows what I mean.
When the 'table speeds up and slows down the skating forces on any radial tracking arm will change. This in turn places forces upon the stylus. In effect, the lateral tracking force of the stylus oscillates. IOW we hear the speed variation as an instability in the soundstage.
Tape is immune to this sort of thing. So are straight tracking arms.
When the machine is really good at speed stability, and if you have a concentric LP(!) then the soundstage will match that of tape.
When the total speed is off, sometimes I hear it due to the pitch, other times I hear it due to the timing. Musicians play things in certain keys and tempos for a reason. With some pieces a speed error is of no consequence and with others it means the heart and soul of the piece is not transmitted to the listener... |
Dear Daniel, While Marx is your countryman I refuse to believe that my German friends are 'petty bourgeous'. On the contrary you are all the world citezens with some peculiar hobby. However 'love makes blind' is a Dutch proverb. Not easy to choose among the social rules between so many countries btw.
Regards,
|
Since Dertonearm did this to me once, when I erroneously attributed the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison" to Shakespeare, I will now point out that Shakespeare is the oft-cited source for the quote "love is blind" (from The Merchant of Venice). This is not to say that a Dutch person did not also say it. And at perfect speed so as not to alter pitch. |
Dear Lew, If you keep quoting all kinds of prowerbs attributing them to Shakespeare there is of course the chance that you may be right sometimes. BTW if it is the case that love makes blind then probable other people were also capable to discovere this truth. Only for the so called intellectual property it is relevant who wrote what first.
Regards, |
Atmasphere is quite correct about constant speed and soundstage.
There are many audible benefits with a turntable which does maintain constant unwavering speed which are unrelated to pitch.
With most turntables.......when the music becomes loud, and complex......the soundstage narrows and flattens, the transparency disappears and the sound becomes brittle.
This is caused by the auto modulation distortion of the soundwave in the time domain.
It is no different to a distortion in the amplitude of the soundwave which we simply would refuse to tolerate.
Those with tape decks have a better understanding of this phenomena and unfortunately........the majority of turntable listeners have not really experienced the liberation that accompanies constant speed control.
Once you do.......there's no going back:^) |
" Musicians play things in certain keys and tempos for a reason" - Atmasphere
That's exactly right, and the point of my earlier comment. Deviation from the musicians' intent has a significant impact on the music. That's not to say that the music can't be enjoyed if there are small deviations, but there is no question that it's full impact can't be realized.
Atmasphere, I agree that speed stability affects sound staging. I also believe it affects perceived detail retrieval, and timbre. I use a straight
tracking arm (ET2), and I still hear improvements in staging when speed stability is good. When it is not, staging is not as defined and is slightly confused.
I think that in our attempt to arrive at a scientific explanation for all the perceived aspects of music playback, we overlook the very real possibility that there are many things that we don't yet fully understand; probably never will. As I said in an earlier post, time and rhythm are where the heart and soul of music lie. The subtleties of rhythm are extremely fine
and can be very elusive for the record/playback process. The relationship
between rhythm and timbre is likewise very important and difficult to understand. For example: experiments have been performed that show that the characteristic (individualistic) recorded tones produced by players on any given instrument are very difficult to tell apart if one removes the initial attack of a note, and listens only to the sound that happens after the attack. Speed instability alters the sound of the initial attack since the initial attack is connected to a point in time. With this in mind, it is not difficult to understand why speed instability can affect just about every aspect of sound. |
"As I said in an earlier post, time and rhythm are where the heart and soul of music lie."
Nah. Rhythm without melody is heartless. :) |
How accurate is the Timeline with its flashing laser?
supposedly time-base accuracy of 2 parts per million
Has that been measured for its accuracy ?
what happens when the batteries start to run down?
|
I heard about an audiophile living in Munich who usually proudly presents his very rare and expensive vintage items, including high calibre turntables. During a listening session someone stated "the sound is so slow, maybe we should check the speed accuracy". The result was 30,.. also being not very stable.
Speed was corrected to 33,33 and in the end the audiophile resisted listening to the correct speed sound. He said, I am used to the slower mode, it doesn`t matter if anything is correct. I love the sound!
Oh my god...
Best and fun only |
Jtimothya, I don't think you are serious (correct me if I'm wrong), but to elaborate on my point: a great drummer playing alone can get the juices flowing with a great groove. Now, imagine a (potentially) great melody played or sung with bad rhythm. The end result can be painful. |
Hello Thuchan,
Congratulations, self-disclosure is good for the soul!
BTW, there is absolutely nothing wrong about being a little slow and loving it...:-)...
Always Happy Listening!
Alan |
Hi Lew - thx for putting my question in layman terms :^)
Syntax - Look forward to your impressiosn of the Sirius. I would be curious as well if you can find out who set the arm up for the owner. i.e. the manufacturer, the owner or a friend ?
Cheers |
Dear Unoer,
my system does not stand in Munich - if you were thinking this direction :-)
I just made a test with the Timeline and the VPI SDS - and indeed it was running a little to fast when using another tonearm (in this case Micro Max 282 with Sussurro).
Slowing down with the SDS is just precision and fun !!!
BTW I also like slow food, slow life but sometimes fast driving :-)
best @ fun only |
Heck, around these parts a nice looking plinth can get the juices flowing. :) Toneless beating in time is not the sum and substance ('heart and soul') of music, regardless of its capacity to motivate. There is no false dichotomy of one over the other (rhythm or melody). Now ... back to the turntable accuracy dance off. |
|
Hello Ct057,
Two out of three...;-)... |
Hi Thuchan,
I do understand that your system stands in Bavaria and it is located on-speed outside of Munich :-)
Also, I like following this attitude of "but sometimes fast driving"...out on the road! :-)
Always happy listening! |
Ct, "Can someone technical explain to me what "5kg - cm" really means in laymans terms."
From the SP-10 Mk2A Operating Instructions:
"If 500 tonearms of 2 g. tracking force were placed on a record at the same time the turntable would still maintain each rated speed."
If this is correct, it does seem to offer a reasonable margin. ;-) |
Dear Ct, Always glad when I can "clarify" something for you, but who can imagine 500 tonearms sitting on one LP? Now that takes some fantasizing. Thanks, Tim, for bringing up that very simple metaphor.
Downunder, if the battery in the Timeline is running low, at some point the laser will abruptly turn off completely, I would think. I think the laser operates like and LED which is like a diode; you need a threshold of energy to activate it. So when you go below that threshold - no light. In any event, I do not think waning battery life would affect its frequency. |
Please don't give up, Frogman! Let me try to continue your argument:
Emotional expression is of course very important in music. But let's take Frogman's example, a beautiful melody being played with no sense of time.
Rhythm and meter are the basic framework of all music - they are what make music intelligible to the listener. Once in a master class, a fellow hornist was playing the famous solo from the slow movement of the Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony (for those of you who do not care much for classical music, you may know the John Denver tune Annie's Song, which uses the same melody). This student was very wrapped up in her own emotions, and was too much in love with the admittedly gorgeous sound she was making, and there was absolutely no sense of time at all. Despite the emotional playing, the music simply made no sense - indeed, it would have been unrecognizable and unintelligible to anyone not familiar with what she was playing. The rest of us in the horn studio patiently waited for her to finish.
Then my teacher asked her - "What do you think I think about primarily when I play this solo in the orchestra?" The student replied "Oh, you're probably thinking about your wife, and how much you love her!" He of course replied "No, I am thinking - " and here he started chanting the subdivision of the beat, along with the comment above that rhythm and meter, and the sense of these things, are what make music intelligible to the listener, even if they are not conscious of this.
He also went on to add that no matter how expressively one plays, poor rhythm is the first thing that will get you eliminated at an audition, and this is very true, though poor intonation is a close second.
I am not arguing that one should play like a machine, however, far from it. But to be expressive with musical time, one must have an accurate sense of it first. One cannot learn to manipulate musical time expressively if one cannot give a sense of strict time. If there is no sense of meter underlying the solo, then there is no context for the listener to follow the expression. This is why just about all types of popular music have a drumbeat behind them - this gives the context or framework to the listener for everything else that is going on, even if they know nothing about music.
The student I described above was lost in her own little world - expressive as she was, her expression was only for her - there was no translation there for the listeners, even though we knew what she was attempting to convey! The sense of time is the framework the musician must set up so that he/she can be understood. This is why Frogman is arguing that this issue is so important, though I do not write as clearly and concisely as he, unfortunately. |
