Greetings from Monterey Bay.
Just watching a spinning Micro Seiki 5000 with HS-80 inertia unit and a Sutherland Timeline which' laser point is so stable, it almost burns a tiny hole in the wall.
I do agree that speed accuracy is a conditio sine qua non with any serious turntable worth feeding a really good system.
There is indeed no excuse.
I too agree that it is quite a task for most any belt driven turntable.
It is however rather easy for most any thread driven high inertia turntable as well as for most every dd or idler wheel drive.
The elastic nature of most any belt - as well as string and tape - however makes it very difficult for mot belt drive tables.
Start measuring the homogenity of a given belt supplied with a bd turntable.
I mean measuring the mechanical quality of the belt.
Ripple and width/diameter constancy.
A very good reference here are the precision belts supplied by Basis Audio.
Belt driven turntables do need more attention here than the other 3 drive principles.
Greetings from beautiful california coast,
D. |
Dear Halcro, just a nice multi-way horn system based set-up in the beautiful Monterey Bay area.
A friend of ours we are visiting to fine-tune the system.
Besides that it is leisure, wine ( some great vintages ..) and song (music ... good music).
Followed next week by another great time in southern Texas.
Greetz,
D. |
stylus drag is not that much depending on VTF ..... |
Hiho, that is some german manufactured tt, but I can't remember the name. It is a belt drive however.
Greetings from California,
D. |
Dear Nandric, focussing the eye on the laser spot frees the mind to set for a kind of "zen meditation" and allows the music to flow directly into the heart and soul of man ....
See - it always depends how you use things ..;-) ..... but I admit being part of the decadent bourgeous inclination of mankind.
After all it took us (mankind) a long way to get here...
Cheers,
D. |
Funny thing that as soon as a NEW component - which none here has heard nor seen in real life so far - isn't praised ahead it is "diminished".
It is not.
It is just not praised ahead and there is nothing new displayed.
Simple.
Some will buy it - some won't.
It will eventually earn some laurels and I will most likely be one of the first in the western hemisphere seeing and listen to it.
Turntable designer disclaimer ...;-) ..... |
Halcro put it in the most precisely manner. The Timeline may be frustrating in it's accuracy, but then it is not the Timeline's fault. Very interesting too, to watch the laser beam over the whole record side ( record it with a camera - it is too boring looking there all the time).
On many turntables one may notice shifting back and forth and correction with controlled motors during heavily modulated passages.
A nice lesson in stylus drag and it's not linear nature. |
No variable ac line = no variation in motor control = better stability.
Problem for many dd turntables IMHO is the fact that the motor MUST control (by nature here ..) the platter very direct with minimum delay.
Thus the use of a heavy platter with high inertia is counterproductive to direct drive.
IMHO however, high mass platter made with some insight in energy transfer and damping have inevitable positive effect on analog reproduction.
A DD with high mass platter "looks" at a similar problem as a BD.
aBoth have a kind of "overhang" in their reaction between motor speed adjustment/correction and reaction by the platter. |
Dear Thuchan, Syntax' comment on "sound quality not related to speed accuracy" points to the fact that the sound quality per se is not in the speed accuracy.
Speed accuracy in a turntable is an undisputed conditio sine qua non.
If a turntable isn't able to hold the 33 1/3 (and the other speeds required..) it isn't worth discussing about sound quality at all.
In the first shoot out in San Antonio between a serious DD and a serious thread drive turntable, we all 3 - Unoear, Syntax and me - heard that there are sonic qualities which go way beyond speed accuracy-related phenomenons.
Speed accuracy is a basic request for any serious turntable.
Here it starts off - it certainly doesn't end here, it is rather the beginning.
|
I am listening (... reading ...), Halcro ...;-) ...
Just back from California and Texas and haunted by 9 hours jet-lag.
Will get the "secret rope" off to you on friday.
Sometimes less is more..... |
In_shore, sure - speed accuracy does heavily influence sound quality.
However IMHO speed accuracy is a basic - if not THE basic - request to ANY turntable.
As said before - this is a conditio sine qua non for any turntable.
As this is a basic feature, it is not contributing to the sound quality, but only in negative sense - i.e. if not accurate speed.
So - here it starts, it is not a goal but the mere basic request which has to be meet by nature anyway.
I as a designer simply make sure this demand is meet to the utmost possible as the very first step.
And I for one think this is easy given today's technical tools and options.
Accurate speed can be obtained with idler wheel, direct drive or thread drive.
It can be achieved with belt drive too, but only with much more effort in control. |
Dear Thuchan, if you are referring to the TechDas as "Micro Seiki back", I wouldn't go that far.
IMHO that design does not resemble Micro Seiki engineering.
We will see what is actually delivered, but what is apparent in the pictures and short descriptions so far doesn't break any new grounds. |
I am not assuming that the main requests are all there, - in fact I see that in many cases this is just not the case.
The request itself is nevertheless a conditio sine qua non in the context of the technical blue book of ANY turntable.
That reality in many instance doesn't follow the request doesn't mean the request is wrong.
Mediocrity may be the name of the game with few exceptions.
It never was for me.
To me it is always and only about best possible results - not was a majority may have problems in nor whether a majority of components may have problems with.
IMHO speed accuracy is so basic a request by nature for a turntable that it is not worth discussing at all. |
Dear Thuchan, the Speednic by Allnic looks neat. Especially as it allows adjustment during play and thus taking into consideration stylus drag.
Thank you for the hint.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Pryso, *now wasn't that non-engineer Harry Belafonte strollin' down the beach in sunny Jamaica with his father who tried to explain to him the thing with the birds and the bees .... ? |
Dear Thuchan, I just this past month ordered the bearings for my new turntable design and the costs are - with a limited edition of 12 units for 2012 and 2013 - USD14,800 + 19% VAT for the bearing alone (no joke - for each single bearing).
But then this bearing is a custom-made bi-planar air bearing of outstanding precision, capable to lift and spin a 110 lbs platter with ease.
If one want to go all the way it get's expensive.
But there are many good standard bearings out there, for far less money and of high quality.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi Dev, the bi-planar air bearing for my turntable in the 1990s was only about half the cost of this new one. But this new one has much tighter tolerances and will do the same job with 1/3 the air volume of the former.
In all engineering the cost/performance ratio becomes a steep curve towards the most tight tolerances, as the manufacturing effort and production reject rate rises in a much higher rate than just proportional.
As said before - there are a lot of good quality bearings out there for a fraction of the costs, suitable to provide very good bearing for a high end turntable.
The turntable using this bearing ( plus the USD3500 dental/medical grade compressor needed to run it ) won't ( can't ...) be a commercial product anyway.
Cheers,
D. |
