Can I expect to pay full retail for a new system?

are you talking about natural sound, my experiences have been much different

Draw - yes. Like I said, there are good things about the store, and some of the people seem ok, but I have also seen a lot of bad attitude.

As I dealer this is a discussion which I hold dear.

I love the person saying you should get a 60% discount, NOT!

The answear to your question should be not how much discount your are or are not entitled to but what is this industry about! High end audio is not about buying a "used" car or going to Best buy and buying a $100 DVD burner.

A good dealer will provide a room or rooms or equipment for you to listen to. A good dealer will help educate you to what sounds good and what you will enjoy. A good dealer will set up your gear or will help you to do it yourself.

For that service a dealer is entitled to make a profit.

We go into business because we love the industry, but we all have to stay in business. I have spend $450,000.00 in demo equipment and that is for only 3 rooms! I have two trucks and a $1,000,000.00 liability policy to protect my clients.

If I don't make money how can I afford to pay for my mortgage, and buy food, and advertise and afford to live.

High end audio is a business! I want to sell equipment and provide outstanding service but I need to make a living!

I would love to see if the tables were reversed and your boss if you have one says that your time is worth an arbitrary lower amount, how would you feel.

A 10% discount is a fair amount to give off as a compromise to your clients, if the dealer is doing a great job then even, gulp, paying full retail is not a weird or outragous transgression.

I have routinly installed big systems for free, done deliveries for free and brought components to customers houses for free, if the customer is worth it and the dealer is offering great service then both parties are doing the right thing!

People on Audiogon need to realize that a good and carring dealer is what this is supposed to be about.

As per the post of the dealer trying to sell a $10,000.00 speaker cable to a guy owning $2,000.00 speakers, this is a golden example of a scumbag dealer doing what is good for him, not you! It is transparent and obvious. Shoot the bastard. I got into my own business to serve my clients and make a living. There are many passionate dealers who will give you great service, they need to be supported and they deserve to make a living and put food on their tables and live in houses and drive cars too!

Buying audio should be like anything else in life, it should be fun and pleasurealbe and ammicable for all! Having a dealer not make money is not fair and not aimicable. This is a very expensive type of business if you are a real dealer!

Live and let live, and have fun!

Has anyone notice that many high end stores seem to have these same 3 or 4 types of salesmen?

--a slight, scrawny guy with a beard & glasses, non-descript personality, able to carry around gigantic full-range speakers by himself with no problem.

--a big, portly guy, sometimes with or w/o beard or glasses, sometimes the friendliest salesman in the store.

--a Tall, pompous, snooty guy whos purpose is to insult the customer's current equipment.

--occasionally, a leftover hippie from the 60's who you can just tell ate way too many mushrooms at one point.

A friend & I once theorized that when audio stores advertise for a new salesman, they advertize for whatever type they don't have (wanted, "tall, snooty audio salesman", or "slight, scrawny audio salesman with a beard & glasses"). They need a balance of the 4 types in each store; 2 big, portly types, or 2 tall snooty types in one store wouldn't work out at all.

It's just a theory tho......

To me a good dealer is worth buying from. And I agree with the above. If you gointo a hi end shop and they you have alot on display and a fair amount in stock, thats a good sign.

Guess what, it costs money for that gear to be there, and if you are treated right and given time to listen and compare, or even borrow something to try, also a good sign, if you take up alot of store time and borrow things and bring them back, for the sole purpose of trying to buy them used on Agon....thats a BAD sign...on the customers part.

If everybody did that all dealers would go outof business.

NOW, if you walk into a " hi end shop" and they have some gear on display and nothing in stock....to me thats a BAD sign...limited display so you cant really compare or hear what you want....and then they tell you " we can order it for you"...I for one will not and do not buy or support stores like thatk, they have no real knowledge and are just order takers, quite frankly I feel they are useless.

I do support and buy from my local dealer who i feel offers real value...but ultimately it is up to the customer what they think is the right thing to do.