Thiel - Inventors and Tinkerers All

Zaikesman, thanks for your typical well thought out reply. I personally find the bass of most Thiels very good, but, think they could be better. The bass doesn't seem to have the same quality transient response of the (albeit superb) middle and upper frequencies. The Thiels seem to be better on bowed bass than plucked bass. Of course this is less of an issue as you move up the line. Unlike some other manufacturers less expensive speakers, Thiel rolls off the bottom, but not the top. Upon casual listening they may come across as "top heavy" or "bright". I believe that the smaller two ways would benefit most from close driver proximity. I don't believe getting the extra cabinet volume due to the more severe baffle slant would be too difficult to accomodate. Earlier Thiels and more recent (port outputs aside) Meadowlarks seem to have managed this. It seems that bass response usually comes at a cost. Using close wall proximity to compensate for the cost of bass along with closer driver proximity in their less expensive/less bass producing speakers would alieviete some of that expense and permit better/more flexible use in the smaller rooms that they would most often and more appropriately be used in. A room that can accomodate more bass can probably accomodate more distance from surrounding walls and listener(s), and visa versa. I don't think that the 1 series would be considered "near-full range", and weren't intended to be. Unless JT or someone else has any other ideas, I think you are right on in saying that the speakers would have to be lower to accomodate more rake. This might(?) cause problems with ceiling/wall reflections. I think most (certainly not all) listeners would prefer more complete musical content over imaging. Thiels more expensive speakers are already on the large side. I don't believe that at the upper end of the range, the extra size and perhaps price would not be so much of an issue, for the advantges of a sealed box. Perhaps, passive radiators in the lower end and sealed boxes in the upper end would be the best compromise. Its note worthy that Thiels most recent work in developing a subwoofer produced an active equalized sealed box. As far as more advanced cabinets go, it appears that many of your suggestions may already be, somewhat in place internaly. On the other hand seeing how Thiel has been in the fore front of in house computer designed and laser manufactured cabinets, perhaps your ideas will come to fruition, sooner than later.

Hmm...we must just differ in our perceptions of Thiel bass. I've found their stuff in general to excell in LF transient definition, but perhaps at the expense of some utlimate bass weight and slam compared to competing designs in similar price ranges. I attribute both factors at least partly to the dictates of first-order crossover design, something which pushes the bass-to-midrange handoff higher in frequency than is the case with higher-order designs (at least as it applies to a 3-way speaker with a moderately-sized cabinet).

About driver spacing, I would really love to see an attempt to create a triaxial simulated point-source time- and phase-coherent near-full-range driver system, so as to eliminate frequency lobing in the crossover regions throughout the range and place all the drivers (except maybe a low-bass augmentation driver) at ear height (I personally am bothered by feeling as if I am 'looking down' into the soundstage when listening to speakers placing the upper-frequency drive-units noticably lower than seated ear-height). This pursuit would seem to be a logical extension of the coaxial mid/treble drivers JT has been designing up 'til now, but it would also be a tough design job that would possibly have to compromise somewhat in the area of treble dispersion. (Cabasse has already made a driver system incorporating this type of physical layout, but I don't think theirs is a time- and phase-coherent first-order design.) The other main option to avoid lobing irregularities is of course some type of vertically-symetrical array, which Thiel currently offers in their large stand-mounted MCS1, but hasn't used in a floorstanding design. Maybe with Dunlavy gone (for the moment, anyway), it's time to try something along these lines in a near-full-range design.

Zaikesman, I'm not surprised to see that after further discussion we seem to be agreeing more and more and disagreeing less and less. I agree with you that Thiels lower priced speakers seem to lack a bit in bass weight and are quite good in transient bass for their "price range". How ever I think the opposite is true for their upper end speakers. Perhaps you can understand why (though for secondary reasons) I think their lower priced speakers could be designed for closer wall proximity. As for the "looking down perspective", I too have expereienced this. Having moved my speakers into 4 different rooms and using a variety of gear, I can confidently say that this a room and associated gear phenomon. In your case I'm quite sure that your VTL's are NOT the problem. May I humbly suggest some ceiling room treatment? I too think a tri-way is intriguing, but, was embarassed to mention what I thought would be such an engineering challange. Maybe MCS1's and Thiels subwoofers might be the ticket? As always thanks for sharing your appreciated and respected thoughts.

Thanks for the tip - now that I have been in a more properly-sized listening room since last summer, I can sit farther away and bring the speakers out a bit more, both of which have ameliorated the 'listening-down' sensation I used to get in the relatively cramped apartment. I have considered ceiling treatment anyway, but am not much motivated, since the sound is good and the system's in the living room. Plus, I'm now using a reclining listening chair, which I've become convinced - after always shunning the things before - is a universal necessity for audio applications (I've got the leather and wood mission-style type, not overly heinous-looking, and the arms securely accomodate remotes). Life could be worse...

Zaikesman and Unsound:

I thought it was just me....I've had that "looking down" feeling in 3 different rooms (in 2 houses) on 2 2's.

Now that you mention it though I don't have it as much in my current room (vaulted ceiling to 16'), as I did before in 8' and 7.5' typical sheetrock rooms. I've often stood up behind my listening chair feeling that I was in the balcony of the concert hall looking down at the orchestra pit. Quite interesting on the right recording, as it seems to add depth to the orchestra.

Wasn't a problem on Sting (Summner's, New Day) or Steely Dan (Two Against Nature), but on the more natural recordings like Chesky and Reference Recordings it was.

Anyway it has frequently seemed the big, deep 3-D image was unnaturally close to the floor. And as I mentioned, I don't get it like I used to in this high-ceiling room.