Suspended Basis vs Nonsuspended Teres


Hi:

I am preparing to upgrade my TT and I am seriously considering a Top-of -the-Line Teres with Basis Vector Arm or Graham 2.2 and Shelter 901 combination. In researching the arm, I had some e-mail exchanges with AJ Conti from Basis.

It was kind of him to correspond with me and I am appreciative of his input. Of course, he endorses his own TT but he was very negative about others except SME. I have excerpted a couple sections to illustrate. Is he correct that nonsuspended tables are inferior unless you purchase a Vibraplane platform. And, do we believe that the Basis has 50 dB less environmental noise infiltration than other TT. My lack of hands-on experience with these TT and their strengths and weaknesses leave me wondering. I have no doubt about the quality of Basis TT but I am seeking input from several sources I trust. Audiogon is one.
see comments below.

"The 2001 with Vector is clearly superior to the SME 20 with any arm. The only turntables I would consider, if I were buying out on the market and knew all I know about all of them, would be Basis Debut series, 2500 series, 2001, SME 30, SME 20.

"Once you own the Vector, after you place it on something else, you will wish you bought Basis, especially after you see one, see the platter turn but have it look so stationary you don't think it's turning, such is its rotational accuracy, and they you note the platter on yours
going up and down as it rotates..........or after you realize that even the 2001 is TOTALLY isolated from all room vibrations, including its own motor, while any Teres, VPI, Nottingham have 50 DECIBELS MORE outside world garbage
getting in than the 2001. Yes, 50 decibels. ... That means NOISE, every unisolated turntable, including our own 1400 and 2000 (only offered to get in a lower price range where
all of the competition is unisolated) are full of noise, changing the tonality, losing and obscuring detail which you can never get back. It is pathetic and ridiculous to offer the $3k plus turntables that are offered without isolation, pretending cones and mulitple layers of actylic and other materials can "isolate" (proving the incompetance or dishonesty) of the designer or sales guy at the company. I love what Teres said to one of their dealers: "We can't
compete with the expertise, fixturing, tooling that Basis has, but here's why we are great-we listen to each one and throw away an entire unit if it does not sound good." What a great statement of "We don't know what we're doing, but
we try hard to not let poor product out the door."

cardiackid
Thank you everyone. I had not given the suspended vs nonsuspended issue enough thought until recently. I will be making a decision soon and I will factor in all of the info provided. Thanks.

Goyescas: I read the vinyl asylum regularly but I have had trouble getting my posts to go through in the past. I am sure it reflects some ineptness on my part. However, I am more of a reader and buyer than a poster to either Audiogon or Audioasylum. I guess I feel I have more to learn than I have good info to share. I am learning from you all and that is fun.

One fact is sure, this suspension issue is very complicated and challenging to many of us. I will be taking an open minded approach to the problem and giving my ears the benefit of the doubt.
Cardiackid,

If you can audition both designs in the same or similar systems, by all means let your ears decide. Just make sure the differences you hear are actually due to the TT's.

FWIW (not much) I chose a non-suspended Teres 265 because:

1) a former Linn dealer, pretty well known and respected around here, said his new Teres destroyed his (suspended) LP12;

2) defeating the suspension in my old, low fi TT produced better results;

3) for my $4K budget it didn't seem like any other TT, suspended or not, could compete;

4) it looks so damn good (sorry but that matters, it's in our living room).

I realize this says virtually nothing about top tables from the likes of Basis or SME. Still, even if a suspension is better in theory, implementing it is complex and maintaining it may be too, depending on the design. If I had more money and time to spend on a TT, then a top Basis, SME or Walker might have been my choice. As it is, I could not be happier with the choice I made. After four months we continue to be astonished by new musical insights and pleasures every evening.

Please let us know how/when/if you answer this question in a way that works for you.
Hi Dougdeacon:

Thanks for the input.

You are absolutely right about listening to different systems. For instance, I have listened to an SME 20/ SMEV/transfiguration set up several times and enjoyed it every time. But, the speakers were large Dunlavys with BAT electronics, all first class. I have Avantgarde/Cary 300B system. So how much can I infer about the TT relative to my system - in particular how dynamic is the sound, how defined is the lower bass, how sweet is the midrange, how spacious and transparent is the imaging. It is really a guess IMO.

I wish there were a centralized venue where one could pay someone to set-up and discuss different components for A-B comparisons. I hate to bother dealers because their time is valuable and I may not end up being a customer for whatever reason. Also, most are trying to sell home theater and time spent with me may be interesting but not profitable. They are in business to make sales.

After all of this discussion, I will post my final decision in Feb sometime. I expect to make the purchases early that month. I am sure, regardless of the decision, there will be disagreement. But, a little controversy makes life interesting.

Thanks again for the help.
Hi,

You know, I was just about ready to change my table until I got the RS-A1 arm. (Hmmm, talking about changing what was not originally planned!)

Anyway, this arm (RS-A1) changed the whole spectrum of my analog set-up. (It replaced the Basis supplied RB-300.) It's faster, more dynamic (like, very dynamic), better focus and has more detail.

Goes to show sometimes you can hit the nail without looking!

Next stop: a better cartridge.

Just thought I'd share what I have done.

Cheers,
George
I'm not at all surprised about Chris' experience with the granite slab, but I see it in slightly different terms than he does. I don't think that removing the compliant feet gave the slab a 'pathway' for resonant energy to 'dissipate', so much as the full-surface contact between it and the underlying wooden rack-shelf provided very much more damping, needed to kill its strong ring. Think of it this way: Wouldn't the same thing have basically happened if he had placed the shelf *on top* of the slab, only to a lesser degree due to the shelf's lesser weight?

My non-suspended TT is placed on a Symposium shelf atop compliant footers, but that shelf is not massive and is fairly well internally-damped and so doesn't ring much on its own, unlike the granite slab. High mass alone is not always our friend in this area, especially depending on how its shaped (think of an equivalent mass shaped as a block and as a slab, for instance, and then imagine a gong and an anvil made of an equal mass of the same metal - the gong rings much lower and longer, the anvil much higher and quicker).

All vibrational pathways are two-way, and I don't want my unsuspended 'table not to be isolated from floor vibrations or from airborne vibrations that are transmitted to my audio rack. If everything is rigidly coupled, then acoustic feedback becomes a real possibility with an unsuspended 'table at high playback volumes, especially in the case of a suspended wooden floor.

Chris mentions 'dissipating' self-generated vibrational energy from the TT on one hand - and how compliant isolation can supposedly thwart that goal - but then goes on to describe how Teres intends to damp this vibration internally through their chassis design. My belief is that these two statements are somewhat contradictory, and that for dealing with energy created at the bearings and stylus/groove interface, damping is the only way you can realistically go (through the use of nonresonant TT construction - which since TT's are rigid means damped, either by using relatively self-damped materials like acrylic or by constrained-layer mixing of unlike materials - and an appropriately compliant full-contact mat with clamp, though some will argue that).

To me, the reason non-suspended TT's can work well in the real world, and the reason less-ambitious suspended designs might not always be unequivocally superior, has largely to do with damping. Many less-expensive sprung-chassis designs are essentially undamped or only rudimentarily damped in their suspensions, so that even though they are resonantly 'tuned' as low-pass filters, this is like a choice between a car with no springs, and a car with springs but no shock absorbers. Clearly, though it will be more complex, cost more, and require more precise engineering, the best ride will ultimately be gotten with both springs and shocks, and I do agree with AJ that a premium TT ought to be both fully suspended and that the susupension needs to be effectively damped.

But on the budget end, where I live, I agree with Chris that unsuspended might often have the potential to be best in practical terms, although I'll demur about rigid coupling as a rule. I think an unsuspended 'table that's internally well-damped, coupled with a non-resonant rigid shelf that's mounted on appropriately-chosen compliant footers, can emulate to a useful degree both the low-pass isolation and overall system freedom from resonance that you would expect from a more expensive suspended design. In fact, if we disregard for a moment the question of where you put the motor, it seems to me that there might be little intrinsic difference between a 'table that carries its own sophisticated damped suspension, and setting an unsuspended 'table on a platform such as a Vibraplane that can perform largely the same function. But - perhaps unlike the manufacturers under discussion her - I've never put that proposition to a practical test, and neither have I ever owned a competently suspended/damped premium TT.