Good, Neutral, Reasonably Priced Cables?

Okay Sean, we're past novel. We're talkin' volume here.

I just went back and re-read my original post and tried to look at it through different eyes. I think some of it appears too self serving. I'm okay with what I said but honestly, I think I could have said some things in a more helpful manner for others. Example:

...I'll only say this: our customer satisfaction (no return policy exercised) has been 96.8% of our total sales. We're shamelessly proud of that.

I could have said (in my thousand words or more style):"...to perhaps establish a bit of credibility to what I'll share we believe are some important things when searching out excellent cabling, our customer satisfaction Blah, Blah Blah..."
I'm still shamelessly proud of the stat because it validates what we believe and how it's contributed to enthusiasts enjoyment of their music but maybe I could have said it in a manner that pointed to my intent to be helpful.

Since I've discovered this Quote tag thing here, I'm gonna go nuts with it.

Sean wrote:

When asked specific questions about this, you defaulted. I don't know if you did this hoping that others might enter the fracas and draw attention away from the situation or for someone to tell me to shut-up and play nice. Only problem is, i don't think that there's anyone coming to your rescue and others have finally realized that you don't get honest answers by "dancing around" the subjects being discussed.

You seem to make pretty substantial leaps from reality to fantasy sometimes. C'mon Sean. Did you read what I said? It wasn't a deflection and it wasn't a "rescue" tactic. I said:

Sean, In regards to your question, I would naturally love to splat what I've learned here and puff myself up (or not) but let's do this: Let's see if another manufacturer will take the opportunity to address some of the purity/quality issue. As of now, Ridge Street is the only one I'm aware of that concerns themself or makes a point about this issue. Not full fledged rocket science but it seems to be one of those details that no one is noticing and thereby giving due attention to.

If no one chimes in I will but I won't divulge it fully since it's something we address and part of what sets us apart from what others are doing.

I didn't say "er...uh...Oh Look! My toast is burning! I gotta go!"

Sean wrote:

Maybe i'm wrong here and you might be a nice guy and all, but telling stories about how things should work and explaining why they do or don't and what makes your product different based on verifiable facts & research is what i was expecting.

Not all the universe revolves around Your expectations and when it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's worthless for everyone because it doesn't meet your criteria.

Sean wrote:

Psychic built you up as someone that could do all of the above, but i've seen no evidence to support his beliefs or expectation.

I can't help what my friend has built me up as. To me, I'm just Bob. But I do appreciate his confidence in us. So, since you've "seen no *evidence* to support his beliefs or expectation (whatever that means)" does that mean he's nuts? Wait, don't answer that. I don't condone or support some of his ways of approaching things whether it's on our behalf or somebody else's but once I'm able to wade through what I consider some of his crap, I've found he does have more than a clue to what works and sounds good. Do you really need that much " evidence" before you do or try something? Are you so suspicious that you only allow accepted facts to dictate what is safe to do or try? Sean, I would really like to imagine not but there's that perception. As a very intelligent man I believe you to be, I can imagine you were a smart kid too. Maybe even a smart baby. Did you refuse your Gerber's until it was dissected and analyzed. I bet not. And look...here you are still alive and kicking!

Sean wrote:

As far as other manufacturers "jumping in", i wouldn't hold your breath. The mass majority of other cable manufacturers ( there are a FEW exceptions here ) are afraid to "lay it on the line". That's because they can't explain / don't understand what it is that they are trying to sell us.

Really Sean. What a small world you must live in. C'mon! That certainly could be (and probably is) one reason why some of the mass majority of Mfg'rs don't "jump in" but it's not THE reason as you make it sound! Other reasons could be for the likes of you...LOL!, time, or perhaps they don't feel the need to explain what they do because their product has proven itself to be good. Maybe they feel that to subject themselves to what they consider unreasonable is a waste of time. There could be all kinds of reasons that you or anyone else, not being all-knowing, Omni-present or Omnipotent, don't know anything about.

You imply that the mass majority of Mfg'rs don't understand anything about what they're trying to sell us. I've never seen a successful business who didn't understand nothing! Even if some Mfg'rs can't explain / don't understand everything about what they offer but it certainly serves peoples needs or wants, should they pack up their ball and go home? I have a close friend who used to be in the utility industry. He told me once that it was really amazing to him how clueless too many important people (including himself) were about how or why certain aspects of our utilities work. I got right on the phone and called my utility company and told them to shut me down. Gas and electric! I didn't want their service until they knew exactly and perfectly everything they were doing. NOT!

Sean wrote:

They build cabling, have cabling built to their spec or simply use off the shelf parts and hide the internals. They do most of this based on what they think will get the job done, be cosmetically desirable while returning a handsome profit on their time and money invested. That's primarily because marketing hyperbole is all that is expected out of them.

You make that sound like that's evil without exception! Are you a liberal....LOL! That's a viable approach. It's not one we ascribe to or how we do our cabling but some companies do and they have happy customers! Are those customers stupid?

"That's primarily because marketing hyperbole is all that is expected out of them." So what? You make it sound like people get possessed when they see marketing hyperbole. Maybe some people do, I don't know...LOL! I bet you approve of marketing, just not the hyperbole. Me too. Understand though that not all marketing is hyperbole. Regardless, I think most people are aware of at least some of the hyperbole. It gets their attention (which is hyperbole's, wrong or right/ethical or not, main purpose) and sometimes, by exercising their freedom, they Choose a given product for whatever other meritable reasons...not always because of the hyperbole and sometimes what you may consider hyperbole isn't. Personally, I try to take personal accountability for what I hear or read and I find a lot of marketing offensive to my intelligence and emotions. Nevertheless, there are times I get past all that and find a useful product that makes a positive difference for me. Is that wrong?

Sean wrote:

When it comes down to it, most speaker cables being made today lack the design integrity to do the job "right" (ed.). So rather than open their mouths and prove this point, the manufacturers remain silent and hope that their name isn't mentioned in a thread like this.

If people stop for a moment and think, I'll bet most consider life (cables included) richer for what is good and if my experience tells me anything, if it's only about what I think is or should be "right", everything is pretty shallow. "Right" is not always good and good doesn't always look right. For what it's worth, even Jesus new that.
(Hey look...I only used 63 words here! I'm getting better! ...and only 275 characters and 62 spaces! (if you go back and count this, you're sicker than I am.))

Sean wrote:

My comments about the thread being interrupted were not geared towards your customers "coming to your rescue", but more-so as a general comment pertaining to a specific group of Audiogon regulars that dislike my "brutish" methods of communications

Then start a new thread and address those AudiogoN regulars. LOL!

Sean wrote:

As far as being a "watchdog", i call 'em as i see 'em. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has webbed feet, etc... it's probably a duck. Just because i'm not shy about pointing the duck out to others and telling them what it is and how to identify it by its' characteristics, it doesn't make me a "watchdog". Having said that, if what i post helps someone to avoid making costly errors or explains why certain situations ( sonic or otherwise ) have arisen surrounding "duck-like" products, so be it.

Not sure your idea of a duck is really a duck unless you mean it literally...web feet and all. As for myself, if I had web feet, my cowboy boots and hi-top Blk/Wht Chucky T's wouldn't fit. Here's my idea of a watchdog. If it guards, barks, attacks and bites what it thinks is foreign, it's probably a watchdog.

Sean wrote:

i have NO idea of what your cables are like. I have third party information on them that is far less than technical in nature and that's all. Neither your website nor your posts here have given me or "anyone else" (ed.) anything to go on.

Again, this seems to be more fantasy than reality. You mean to tell me our almost 185 projects this year were from folks who had nothing to go on? They just called here and said "Look, I don't know why I'm calling but I've just saved up a $135,000.00 and I guess I would like to buy some cables. I'll take yours and...don't even try to give me some reasons or info about your cables. If you do, I'll just take my business elsewhere!" Dam Sean, that would be the life right there! Hell, it would probably even be okay if I didn't even send this person any cables after payment. I mean what difference would it make?

Just because how I answer peoples questions and how I service folks doesn't fit within your frame, that doesn't constitute "anyone" (everyone) else! New Math?...you are a liberal aren't you...LOL! Look, I don't pretend to be everything to everybody and I understand that if one of us were a woman, we'd probably never be husband and wife. I'm okay with that but to say that no one would be my wife (so to speak), guess what...I have a wife! and we have a few customers who believe in what we're doing.

Sean wrote:

While it's quite possible i may be a great fan of your products once i had the chance to really get to know them ( technically and sonically ), the only way that i could do that would be to buy them, use them, dissect them and analyze them for myself. Given that i'm not buying any more cabling from someone that won't tell me what it is that they are selling ( i've been ripped off enough as it is ) and i'm not about to "gut" someone else's property that might be kind enough to let me borrow them, the chances of that happening are slim to none.

Surely that's the only valid way to approach whether an audio product is any good and it's what I do too: Listen to it (lets say I really like it better than what I've used before and other folks have used the product with good success for years) and then measure it, rip it apart and analyze what's in it. I find I don't like the numbers and traces on the scope and I have a real thing against the air pollution it caused to make the synthetic insulators used. This thing's a piece of..."I've been ripped off!" proclaims I. Again...NOT.

If you feel one way or another you've been ripped off, I'm sorry for your loss. Most small Mfg'rs like myself minimize the risk of ones investment by offering at least a 30 day money back guarantee. Some, like Chris at VH Audio offer 60 days I think. So where's the rip off? If one returns the cables they bought to who ever, they're out some time and probably some shipping cost. The education there is worth more than that.

Sean wrote:

The bottom line is that more info specifically about the products themselves with less background about the company could result in more potential sales.

Yep...it "could". (down to three words)

Sean wrote:

Robert: How much simpler would it have been if you had just said "Purity is measured by what percentage of impurities there are in the conductor. "Q" as i call it has to do with what type of impurities are involved. Not all impurities effect the performance of a cable in the same fashion. This is something that we pay attention to while other manufacturers seem to overlook this aspect of production"........This would have been a lot simpler, would have explained the point that you were trying to make while not giving any "proprietary secrets" away and would have actually made you look relatively intelligent with a short and educational response. Instead, you write another novel

Now come on Sean. You accuse me of writing a novel. I said what you said above here with less words! What I said was:

Purity has to do with the level of impurities. We all know that I think. Q has to do with levels of types of impurities.

What I wrote ahead of it was no more (or less) a novel than when you post most of the time. So why the dig? No matter. No harm here. I got a good chuckle.

Sean wrote:

Is there any other business where you can call up / email / go to and ask them for technical assistance or spec's concerning their products and they tell you about the owner's background, the company, the goals of the company, etc... everything BUT what you asked for?

When did you call here or is this another fantasy? The reality is when folks call here they are armed with enough info to make an informed decision on whether to give us a try or not. I'm guessing if, in reality mind you, you did call you might not feel the same way. I would be sorry but that's how it goes sometimes for both of us. Wished it were never so but... I can think of two times specifically when someone called and while they didn't specifically say it, I got a real sense that I didn't answer their questions they the wanted or needed me to. I bet if those two people are reading this, they know who they are...Hi. Sorry I wasn't able to be more helpful.

Like I said, I wished I could but I can't be everything to everybody but I think I am pretty good at being at least a little more than enough for a lot of people. (Rescuers solicited...)

Now, after all this Sean, I'm not trying to make you a wrong bad guy about everything or get you to change, just expand. Not that it may matter to you but I think you obsessively ROCK! I kind of like it and I appreciate you. Like my wife says I remind her of, you remind me of Billy Joel's "I Don't Know Why I Go To Extremes". That's a compliment. I "know" that song not by heart but in heart. Weird maybe and I don't get it but I almost feel like crying right now. Maybe we're comrades on oppisite sides of a fence. If so, maybe that's sad.

Well look at me. What a way to spend a Sunday. Maybe I'm obsessive.

Your Friend,
Robert

This is better than the censorship wars!

I suggest an Audiogon get together *party* wearing moniker nametags, be kinda interesting.

Boy, it sure is refreshing to see some other people taking the beating, and not me, for a change.

Maybe a good suggestion would be for everyone to get rid of their speakers altogether, and replace them with oscilloscopes, so we could all watch the happy waveforms of our favorite music dancing on the screen, and continuously analyzing the distortion products, instead of listening to music.

Now that sounds like fun.

I can just imagine the Audiogon posts then:
"How come my oscilloscope shows more distortion product when I use speaker cable B, than A?"
Or my favorite:
Should we really be using speaker cables on our oscilloscopes, or would it be better to use oscilloscope cables instead?"
Or:
"Does anybody else like to watch steady-state test tone wave patterns?"
Or, the ever-popular:
"Where can I get a cheap cable that will show good waveforms on my 'scope?"

Somehow, I manage to get enjoyable listening, even without ever hooking up a single piece of test equipment to my system. Do I need a 12-step program to release me from the errors of my ways? Or maybe I should have said a "12-step function selector switch?"
:^)

Optimistically speaking though, maybe someday our testing methods will include actually listening to the music. That would be a great day indeed. I find it rather humorous that the only testing method that "does not count" is listening with the human ears in your own listening room. And that there is "no error" in testing regimes, and all error is in the ear or perceptions of the ears, because science is god and cannot be wrong, or more accurately, wrongly applied.

Technology is a means to an end, nothing more. That "end" is listening to the music. If the technology does not improve your listening enjoyment, or even detracts from it, then it is useless. Getting a perfect scope pattern, if it doesn't translate into better enjoyment, is not the goal.

You can't "spec" or "measure" your way to audio nirvana. Audio nirvana is an emotional place which is provided by the emotional content of the music. There is no "emotional content meter" available. Good luck with your other meters.

You can "extrapolate" specs all you want, and try to "presume" that "this" measurement will mean "that" level of enjoyment, but in the end it is "in the ears" and "in the emotions", my friend. That, you cannot measure with a meter, you can only experience it, and THAT is "where it's at".

You can take 2 audio tubes that measure and spec exactly the same, but may come from a different manufacturer, and they sound noticeably different. Why? Do we want to dissect these tubes, and perform sub-atomic testing, so that ultimately we can learn that "matter" and "energy" and "space" are all actually "one", and we have no idea what is at the basis of it all? Maybe you do. But I don't. I want to hear a nice sounding audio system that stirs my soul with music.

What if you found 2 different cables that had all the same measurements exactly, and sounded different? What would you do then? I'll tell you what you'd do. You'd have to accept that your measurements are incomplete, and flawed in concept and application, and that they only tell you rudimentary things. Then, you'd be starting out on the same road that many of us started on long ago. It's in the listening.

Rumour has it the original poster who wanted to recable his entire system without going nuts has committed suicide.