CD vs. SACD vs. DVD-Audio vs Vinyl vs...

I never said price equated quality. I merely implied that it would take the very best equipment to get the most out of upsampling. My standards are no different than anybody's who enjoys quality audio. Listening with a group of people is hardly a controlled testing environment, since perceptions can be swayed by outside factors that have nothing at all to do with objective listening. And all sorts of false conclusions have been born out of double blind testing; it's a flawed way to make comparisons. THE HIGH END INDUSTRY EXPERTS ALL AGREE WITH THIS. I don't need a group of people controlling the way I conduct comparisons...If you like this type of thing, you are subscribing to the Consumer Reports "methodology".

And I said nothing about double blind testing. The reason for a group of people listening and testing together is so no one person controls the outcome of the test. The music is chosen based on what multiple people like, and subsequently this forces all of us to evaluate what the system can do in a variety of situations. Additionally, the equipment being tested is also available for use in the other members sound systems. The group owns (or owned) many types of equipment, from Atmasphere, Tube Research, Audio Research, B&W, McCormack, Soundlab, VIVA, Wolcott, Vandersteen, JM Labs, Aesthetix, Counterpoint, EASE Audio, Jadis, Basis, Graham, Versa Dynamics, Keuwetsu, Benz, Walker, and this is just a fraction. If you think that a single persons opinion is more value than a group of people, all testing together, then your logic is certainly different than ours. When a piece of equipment "works" on three, four or five systems, then that is a damn good sign that it is a winner. Or, if a piece of equipment fails on all the systems, it obviously has problems. Secondly, I disagree that I need the ultimate in equipment to get the most out of upsampling. The fact is that the CD format is limited in information (not to mention the brick wall filter, which causes phase problems) and you cannot get information (or restore phase) where it does not exist. The WHOLE reason for the SACD format was to rectify the problems with the old format, and give the industry a shot in the arm with new sales. CD format was established 20 years ago, and is ready for a face lift. How would you like to have a computer or any other digital based piece of equipment that is 20 years old, and try and make it the ultimate by plugging in a correcting device. Just as computers have upgraded each year (did I say YEAR?) The CD format has desperately needed upgrading for many years. The CD itself is the problem, not just the digital format. That is why I made the comment in the other posting about the master DAT tape sounding better. It is flawed, but not as flawed as the CD. Especially in the case I was describing, when it was a master and had not been resampled or downsampled from the original source. The CD cannot be corrected by any device, at least not corrected in the sense of making it into analog. The sampling rate is limited by the 20 year old format that now must be adhered to, to assure format compatibility. I would not disagree with you that upsampling is superior to not using it. BUT, it is still a poor contender for analog. The CD format was argued about, and like many things, pressed onto the public before it was perfected. However once the format was set, because it is digital, it cannot be changed, until a new format can be launched that is cross compatible. The LP was replaced for many reasons. First and foremost, it is more expensive to produce. The number is actually about 6 times. So, if you were Sony, Phillips, etc., and you also happened to own a lot of music (CBS) would you like to make a few hundred million dollars extra? And DONT THINK it is NOT about MONEY. The LP was a burden for the music industry because of all of the following reasons: More cost to make, heavier to ship, more likely to break in shipping, more returns due to "defects" (remember most people don't know how to set up a turntable, and therefore blame the LP), more space required to display, more storage area required for both the distributor and the re seller, inability to replace a defective (damaged) cover (all you need with CD is a new Jewel Box). And, the LP does not lend itself to be used as a portable source. All of these reasons contribute to the desire for the music people to push the CD. So, again, I state that CD is inferior in sound, not in popularity or profit margins. And, if you are getting better sound out of upsampling than you do from your LP, either your system is not pushed out to the limit, or your turntable needs upgrading. If you believe that your LP is better, and you simply like your CD player and the upsampling system you use, because you have a ton of music that is not on LP, and you want to listen to it, then I don't know what all this discussion has been about. Play it and enjoy it!

Everything you've said is common knowledge (we all know that the CD format was conceived of for higher profit margins--you're not blowing anybody's mind with that), and since you don't know what all the fuss is about, WHY IS IT THAT YOU TALK SO MUCH? I admit that one thing you can do better than me is type fast...So can anybody's secretary. Most audiophiles don't care if a component will work extremely well in more than one system context, THEY ONLY CARE IF IT CAN GET THE MOST PERFORMANCE OUT OF THEIR OWN UNIQUE SYSTEM CONTEXT. Perhaps if your group were doing market research for a manufacturer, THAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT. I don't object to doing what you do with the group. HOWEVER, IF YOU SPEND MORE TIME DOING THAT THAN LISTENING ON YOUR OWN, then you're more interested in the socializing, than in listening to music for the sake of doing it for your own pleasure. AND, DON'T PRESUME THAT RELINQUISHING CONTROL OF A TEST SITUATION INCREASES IT'S VALIDITY OR ACCURACY. The inevitable extra tension kills the accuracy, whether the votes are anonymous, or not. If you'll read my previous comments, you should get the impression that I still think LP's have a vastly superior POTENTIAL performance, BUT IT'S DAMNED SURE NOT ALWAYS REALIZED (maybe more than half the time, MAYBE NOT). Everybody knows that there are plenty of cases where the version of a recording on CD is either better than the typically average condition, vintage vinyl version on LP...Or else the vinyl pressing itself had flaws in the manufacturing process to begin with. YOUR ARGUMENT WAS TO CHUCK ALL CD's from your collection, because you "couldn't bear to hear CD". I SUBMIT THAT IT WAS YOUR DIGITAL GEAR THAT WASN'T UP TO SNUFF. And, you don't like brick wall filters? SO WHAT? Several manufacturers use slow roll off filters to good effect. Look into it. By throwing out all CD's, YOU'RE THROWING THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER, for Pete's sake!!! I never said the CD standard didn't need updating, but to not use CD at all is just plain silly and wrongminded. MICHAEL FREMER SPENDS PLENTY OF TIME LISTENING TO THAT ABHORENT CD MEDIUM, and not just out of need for his columns. I CONSIDER HIM TO HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OF VINYL THAN ANYONE (especially you), so stop your extremist rhetoric...IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU'RE CLOSED MINDED, AND CAN'T SEE THE WHOLE PICTURE. And I came in under 10,000 words...I guess my verbal skills have more of a "brick wall filter", and yours have more of an infinitely non-exitsent filter...heh heh heh.

Excellent views albertporter. I could not agree with you more. You seem to have a very good ear. Would you like to share what your equipment is.

"Snook2", if you will please give me your e-mail address, I will e-mail you so we can trade phone numbers, that way we can speak in person. I would be glad to pay for the call. Maybe you live near enough that you could join us in one of our music listening sessions. It is most often at my home. Sometime there are visitors that are very interesting. One is the Grammy winner that I spoke of, and one is the owner of the number one web site for audio, two own audio manufacturing companies, one is the importer for a line of audio product from Europe. All in all a super group of nice guys to listen with and learn from. By the way, I wish I knew who "Jazzman" was as well, I have read his postings for a good while now and he has a lot of things to say that not only agree with, but find very interesting.