Well, I'm no expert, but I say my Resolution Audio CD-50 will play CD's better than any SACD player in the here and now. I DARE ANYBODY TO COMPARE THEM SIDE BY SIDE, playing a CD. (Of course, you'll need that extra linestage for the SACD player. Good luck getting one that's as good as not having one at all, heh heh.) "WHY", YOU ASK? Because the SACD process isn't compatible with CD, and so IT DOES NOT A DAMN THING FOR IT. It'll be A DECADE before everything is available in the next digital format that actually "takes hold". AND THAT MAY, OR MAY NOT, BE SACD. All these early adopters that proclaim it's so "great" really annoy me! LISTEN TO VINYL FOR A FEW MORE YEARS, and stop worrying about being "left behind". UPSAMPLING IS THE ONLY THING THAT WILL HELP CD's, so you need to look into those, if you want CD sound that Scull in Stereophile thinks "sounds better than SACD"!!!!!! THE ONLY GUYS WHO'LL BE LEFT BEHIND ARE THE EARLY ADOPTERS OF A NEW FORMAT, HOWEVER "GREAT" IT MAY BE RIGHT NOW... Think about it, and maybe save for a dCS setup. Or, if you've got A LOT of disposable income, go buy another SUV before gas goes back over 2 dollars a gallon...heh heh. They're about as useful/practical as SACD. I'd rather have a Porsche 911 Turbo anyhoo... |
MIKE: I apologize for seeming overly aggressive. It is you who is wrong, however. For one thing, Porsche doesn't make "superchargers". (Get real!! You don't even know the difference between a turbocharger and a supercharger!) It's obvious that you're the one who thinks it's all a contest. I'M MERELY STATING FACTS. The SACD process does nothing at all for CD playback, SO GET OVER YOURSELF! And the new dCS combo only costs a couple thousand more than the SCD-1, so you're WRONG about that too. Also, my CD-50 driving the power amp directly has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE WHOLE PASSIVE PREAMP DEBATE (in case that's what you're getting at). You can't compare it to Wadia either, because their filter kills the top octave. AND VINYL LOVERS AREN'T IN DENIAL ABOUT ANYTHING. It is vinylphobes who have the fear issues. I'm plenty open minded, and I never said SACD's were no good. YES, INDEED I HAVE HEARD THE SCD-1. I think when a real highend company gets the rights to make a machine, we'll all look back on all the "Sonymania", and have a good chuckle!!! BTW, MIKE, YOU'RE FULL OF CRAP! You wouldn't know fine automobiles, or fine audio, IF IT BIT YOU ON THE KEESTER!! I suggest you crawl back in your hole... |
MIKE, I was referring to the (as yet released) factory 996 (911) Turbo. What model year is the 911 you had modified? I'm glad you know the difference. (Hope you don't just drive the speed limit!) I thought that tuners like Ruf in Germany were supposed to be the best, though I know there are tons more. BUT, I DON'T KNOW OF ANY RACING TEAM (driving Porsches) THAT USES SUPERCHARGING. THEY'RE ALL EXHAUST TURBO. If you're near me, we should get together and hear each other's systems. You could even let me drive your Porsche. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WRONG dCS combo. I'm referring to the new models (NOT the ELGAR). Look it up. The combo is like $11,000. I can't afford it yet, and any preamp that would really make use of it would cost more than that. |
MIKE: I'm in TN, near Chattanooga. I don't know when I'll get up your way. If you are ever down this way, we should get together. HOW FAST HAVE YOU HAD HER, TOP END (and I don't mean "treble", heh heh)?? |
MIKHAIL: Is your last name Gorbachev? What'll you do if we don't shut up, get another tatoo on your head (heh heh)? |
ALBERT PORTER: I agree with you on most points. BUT... your feelings represent an EXTREME viewpoint, I believe. I love vinyl, but let's be honest with our ears here (mine are quite good). The fact is, the technology (even interconnect cabling, and 3 to 2 downmixing "consoles"--besides the cutting amps, and cutters, and vinyl formulations) used to produce the vinyl in the old days WAS ARCHAIC. I feel that only the recent pressings from RTI (Classic Record's reissues, Analogue Productions, etc.) ACTUALLY REPRESENT THE BEST that vinyl is capable of (esp. the 12 inch 45's). I HAVE BERNIE GRUNDMAN'S SIGNATURE IN THAT SHINY BLACK SURFACE A COUPLE OF HUNDRED TIMES, SO I KNOW. I've compared them with mint originals, and there's no contest AT ALL, NOT EVEN CLOSE! Perhaps the largest "subgroup" of us audiophiles listen to BOTH CD, AND LP. Personally, as long as I don't listen to both in one night, I am comfortable with either. I don't quite have 2000 CD's, and what I do have I WON'T BE THROWING OUT...EITHER FOR VINYL, SACD, DVD-A, E-PROM CHIPS, or whatever actually does replace CD as the mainstream "hard copy" format. YOU JUST NEED TO TRY dCS upsampling. IT MAKES CD'S BETTER THAN SACD ANYWAY...it's so good I doubt even your pricey linestage could get the most out of it (much less the rest of your system). PERHAPS AN $80,000 LINESTAGE, and a 2 MILLION dollar amp/speaker combo COULD.... |
I never said price equated quality. I merely implied that it would take the very best equipment to get the most out of upsampling. My standards are no different than anybody's who enjoys quality audio. Listening with a group of people is hardly a controlled testing environment, since perceptions can be swayed by outside factors that have nothing at all to do with objective listening. And all sorts of false conclusions have been born out of double blind testing; it's a flawed way to make comparisons. THE HIGH END INDUSTRY EXPERTS ALL AGREE WITH THIS. I don't need a group of people controlling the way I conduct comparisons...If you like this type of thing, you are subscribing to the Consumer Reports "methodology". |
Everything you've said is common knowledge (we all know that the CD format was conceived of for higher profit margins--you're not blowing anybody's mind with that), and since you don't know what all the fuss is about, WHY IS IT THAT YOU TALK SO MUCH? I admit that one thing you can do better than me is type fast...So can anybody's secretary. Most audiophiles don't care if a component will work extremely well in more than one system context, THEY ONLY CARE IF IT CAN GET THE MOST PERFORMANCE OUT OF THEIR OWN UNIQUE SYSTEM CONTEXT. Perhaps if your group were doing market research for a manufacturer, THAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT. I don't object to doing what you do with the group. HOWEVER, IF YOU SPEND MORE TIME DOING THAT THAN LISTENING ON YOUR OWN, then you're more interested in the socializing, than in listening to music for the sake of doing it for your own pleasure. AND, DON'T PRESUME THAT RELINQUISHING CONTROL OF A TEST SITUATION INCREASES IT'S VALIDITY OR ACCURACY. The inevitable extra tension kills the accuracy, whether the votes are anonymous, or not. If you'll read my previous comments, you should get the impression that I still think LP's have a vastly superior POTENTIAL performance, BUT IT'S DAMNED SURE NOT ALWAYS REALIZED (maybe more than half the time, MAYBE NOT). Everybody knows that there are plenty of cases where the version of a recording on CD is either better than the typically average condition, vintage vinyl version on LP...Or else the vinyl pressing itself had flaws in the manufacturing process to begin with. YOUR ARGUMENT WAS TO CHUCK ALL CD's from your collection, because you "couldn't bear to hear CD". I SUBMIT THAT IT WAS YOUR DIGITAL GEAR THAT WASN'T UP TO SNUFF. And, you don't like brick wall filters? SO WHAT? Several manufacturers use slow roll off filters to good effect. Look into it. By throwing out all CD's, YOU'RE THROWING THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER, for Pete's sake!!! I never said the CD standard didn't need updating, but to not use CD at all is just plain silly and wrongminded. MICHAEL FREMER SPENDS PLENTY OF TIME LISTENING TO THAT ABHORENT CD MEDIUM, and not just out of need for his columns. I CONSIDER HIM TO HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OF VINYL THAN ANYONE (especially you), so stop your extremist rhetoric...IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU'RE CLOSED MINDED, AND CAN'T SEE THE WHOLE PICTURE. And I came in under 10,000 words...I guess my verbal skills have more of a "brick wall filter", and yours have more of an infinitely non-exitsent filter...heh heh heh. |
BMP, I've borrowed Harmonic Technology cables, and have them right now. They need to go back soon. Which ones are you curious about? You don't seem to be interested in my other suggestions, so I don't know why you'd think I knew about these cables. I'm not experienced with Vibra Pods, but I'm sure they'd help at least a little. I use AQ Little Feet, and they work great. And if you didn't know the chair was leather, that's different. |
Albert, Grammies are won by whoever uses the most dynamic compression and artificial processing; NOT THAT YOU DON'T ALREADY KNOW THIS. How nice for you that you can rub shoulders with so many "big wigs". One day, I'll be in a similar position. I'll be happy to come visit you in the retirement home then... |
Albert, I'm sorry I've hurt your feelings. I was simply defending myself, and my position. I'm happy that the grammy winner you speak of is a conductor, really. I enjoy music more than anything, even more than Porsches (mostly), and that's saying a whole helluva lot! No problems at all with my system, it is unbelievably great, AND YOU'D LOVE IT'S SOUND FOR SURE. That's a gurantee! I'm happy to have had this exchange with you, and am eager to discuss anything about audio with open minded people (we all still have plenty to learn). IF PEOPLE WANT TO GO BUY AN SCD-1, that's marvelous. But don't fool yourself into thinking you'll have that machine for many years, because you won't. I MEAN, HOW LONG HAVE YOU HAD YOUR TURNTABLE, AND HOW LONG HAS IT SATISFIED YOU? There's no need to hurry and adopt what you feel to be the latest innovation in digital audio, BECAUSE DIGITAL IS HERE TO STAY FOR EVERMORE, TILL THE END OF TIME (or at least our time). MY GOAL IS TO GET ENOUGH AUDIO GUYS INTERESTED IN ANALOG THAT IT MIGHT BE KEPT ALIVE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!!! Therefore, every nickel spent on an SCD-1 could have, and SHOULD HAVE, been spent on an analog rig. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING. If you think SACD is the best format, JUST THINK HOW GREAT DIGITAL AUDIO WILL BE 3 YEARS, OR 5 YEARS, FROM NOW. Might as well buy more vinyl/turntables/etc. now. And enjoy CD's on CD players that GET THE MOST out of CD, and not DEPEND ON A PLAYER that uses a process that DOESN'T GET THE MOST OUT OF THEM...SEEMS LIKE THE ONLY LOGICAL SOLUTION TO ME...unless the ONLY recordings in your collection are those 50 SACD's, which isn't the case for anybody on this planet!! It's not as if there were only 50 titles per year released in the Cd format's beginnings. Why? Because that was a format that the industry got behind, so much so that it was rammed down our throats. The public at large has never heard of SACD, yet it's been available for a year...the public at large doesn't care about audio quality, and we all know that. And the industry is interested in keeping the highest profit margin possible. Whatever the next digital format will be, it won't be dicided until the public at large decides. BUYING AN SCD-1 (or even the ES model) WON'T SPEED THIS ALONG, EITHER. |
I'm happy there's no hard feelings, and I figured I'd be "preaching to the choir" regarding vinyl, with you in particular. My hope is that others can read how strong someone can like that format, and perhaps the two of us have that covered, for now (heh heh). AS FOR KRELL, THEY DON'T NEED ME TO DEFEND THEM, AND INDEED I DID FIGURE YOU WERE JUST "MESSING WITH ME". I don't think that particular CJ with a Krell power amp would be such a bad combo at all. I think that $80,000 preamp I referred to earlier would be better, say with the Reference or Audio Standard amps. NOT THAT I COULD AFFORD ANY OF THESE, though I'm sure YOU COULD, "Mr. Gates/Sultan of Brunei/Rockefeller/robber-baron-of-audiodom", heh heh heh... |
ElDragon: Thanks very much for the compliments!! Jtinn: YOU'VE REDEEMED YOURSELF WITH ME, since you like vinyl, and your observations are entirely CORRECT about the issue of SACD, and also of comparing an SACD player with a quality CD player. I apologize for attacking you in "Wilson vs. Sonus Faber"...it's just so darned fun I can't help attacking somebody. I DO USUALLY APOLOGIZE IF THEY TAKE IT TOO PERSONALLY, though...you certainly warrant that now, so I'M SORRY...for now...heh heh heh. |
Martin is the cranky one that's doing the nagging here. Just because you've never heard vinyl on a decent rig doesn't give you the right to be a smart guy with me. We enjoy vinyl because it IS better. I enjoy CD as much or more than you do, that's not the point (my player is very likely better than yours). And it costs about the same to have a decent analog, OR digital rig. When you liken vinyl to the "horse'n'buggy", YOU'RE JUST SHOWING HOW SILLY YOU ARE. I liken vinyl to a car racing analogy: There was once a racing series far better than, say, Nascar. It was in the 1970's, and the cars were more powerful and much higher in technology than Nascar. (I'm using today's Nascar racing as an example because of it's popularity, and because of the irony of its inferior technology; leaving off the most high tech racing of all time, Formula One, which is far above the technology in even the Indy CART series). THIS 1970'S SPECTACLE WAS CALLED CAN AM, or Canadian American racing series. Perhaps those in the northern lattitudes (Michigan, Wisconsin) remember it. Even more than the Grand Touring Prototype racing at Le Mans, THIS CAN AM SERIES made Porsche a legend with the 917 race car. This machine produced 1500 horsepower, was the first road racing model to employ DRASTIC amounts of turbo charge boost, could go 240 mph, and won more races than any other CAN AM car. IN THIS ANALOGY, vinyl (on a decent, NOT stratospheric rig) is the 917, and CD is Jeff Gordon in his ugly, low tech Nascar. The 917 overtakes him at about 80 mph, when the Nascar racer is going all out. |
BM, it is you sir, who needs to lighten up. Sorry you didn't enjoy the analogy, but it was by no means a long one. Perhaps you read at a rate that might be slower than normal. Good luck with that, and go stick a firecracker in your auditory canal, dude. |
Thanks VERY MUCH for the support, Eldragon and Drumsgreg! You guys are very nice people, and astute audiophiles! Mikeam, please GET OVER this vendetta. I'm not out to try to keep people from posting on here (that WOULD be bad). Mike, I'll be more than happy to refrain from replying to any of your posts (positive or negative), if it will help you better express your thoughts on here. I'M ALL FOR A HIGH MINDED DISCUSSION OF ANY TOPIC RELATED TO AUDIO, so by all means, put something good on here. We'll all be better off for it. BMP-Martin: Sorry for letting you have it, but I honestly didn't feel any more rude than you seemed to be, and I was trying to inject humour (as usual). I don't see how you could take anything personally, BUT IF YOU DID, I sincerely apologize. SEEMS TO BE A RECURRING THEME FOR ME.........HOW'S THIS? I think a good topic for discussion would be for us to critique and discuss a magazine review we have read recently. If others have read it, it would be interesting to share our opinions on it. I think John Atkinson has had many interesting thoughts at the front of Stereophile recently. A discussion of Michael Fremer's reviews could get really interesting. Jonathan Scull is a tad pretentious, and seems to be wrong a lot, BUT HE USUALLY REVIEWS THE BEST EQUIPMENT. ANYWAY, JUST A SUGGESTION...I realize we all have less time to read reviews than we used to, perhaps... |
For the record, I humble myself before Albert Porter, specifically regarding power cords for my power amp. He was right, and I was wrong FOR SURE! |
Indeed, Audiogon has asked me to censor myself, and I will certainly oblige. I apologize for responding too much to posts in this forum. I guess I've not gotten old enough to just lay down and take a whoopin every now and then. TO ALL THAT COMPLAINED, sorry you couldn't take the heat, and stayed in the kitchen. This has reinforced what I already knew: that when you really do want to voice your opinion, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"...at least on a private website... |
Gerry, you say I don't know the rules. I apologize for not knowing them. Seems like there's only one that applies here: We go tell the teacher when we get upset with another kid's opinion, instead of sticking up for ourselves like adults. I'm tired of apologizing, so I won't post in the forum for a while. Rejoice! |
I'm back. 0008: It's good that you have "little adventures" like that. I'd lay odds that the "plastic effect" you heard primarily was from the recording. But that terrible Focal tweeter in the Wilsons just "magnified" it. The Krell certainly wouldn't help something like that turn "creamy" either, and neither would the upsampling. THE TWEETER IN THE SONUS FABERS IS THE BEST DOME TWEETER IN THE WORLD. I own a pair of these domes, and if there was ever a soft dome that could soundly beat ANY metal dome, this is it!..........To Albert: Is the physical size of each tiny "grain" of 4x5 film the same physical size as 6x7 centimeter format film? I've seen photos enlarged to 30 by 40 inches with this format, and the resolution is stunning. IMAX movie film is also this 6x7 size...talk about something to judge future TV formats by!! |
Oh, and about the CD50. I think they've stopped production on them for a while. I was just trying to get people to buy used ones, like I did. That's where the real value is, especially now. |
Bmpnyc: Just curious, how often do you venture off Manhattan Island? (...a theory I have about people in the music industry who live there...) Anyway, sounds like you've done things I've only dreamed of (recording for so many years). Someday, I hope to do mine in LA, or a "ranch" in Marin County. What sort of recording do you do? 128 channel SSL console? Neve? What's your favorite omni mike for minimalist, natural/nonprocessed, audiophile-type recording? Neumann U47? |
The only wear I've dealt with is that done by bad and unclean styli and setup thru the years (of other people), on vintage LP's. Some say they can be brought back to good condition, but that's more hope than reality. Just a thought, but you should seek out Michael Fremer if you want to know about vinyl. He currently is the vinyl guy for Stereophile magazine. I think he lives in NYC. Read every "Analog Corner" and review he's done there over the past 5 years (before you try to meet him), and you'll know plenty. Sorry to hear about your poor health. Hope you feel better soon. BTW, I think YOU should get the prize for the longest backstory of something...heh heh. Kidding only. |
That's a very tough call, and would vary with the vinyl formulation. Maybe 10 or 15 times with a good hard vinyl surface, maybe 3 to 8 times with a soft one. It's almost imperceptable, so maybe the treble range above 15kHz loses about .2 dB with every 10 to 20 plays (past the first 10). IT VARIES MORE THAN THAT GOING FROM OUTER TO INNER GROOVE, USUALLY, from the surface velocity decrease. With the best tracking cartridges, this particular effect might be below audibility. And sometimes, it was compenstated for during that particular LP's manfacturing process. But there are far bigger transgressions than this, like faulty RIAA curve settings for the cutting amplifier. I use Gruv Glide every time I play a side usually, along with this five step process (others will disagree, and they're wrong...heh heh, kidding...sort of): Clean the stylus with the Benz brush; An older bottle of Last #4 on the stylus; then a newer one; then Record Research Lab #9; then Last #5. I try to let it dry for 30 seconds or more between each application. I do this for every record side played. If the cantilever suspension turns grey (dried out) after a year or two, I apply Armor All with the end of a toothpick, directly onto the rubber (carefully!). You have to do it upside down, so take the arm off first, or else take the cartridge off. Works great. |
Gerry, do you offer any imperical and credible evidence that Armor All accelorates the aging of the rubber compound in cantliver suspensions? And not just what somebody told you... |
Gerry, I apologize for seeming like such an unevolved human to you here. As you say, your opinion and your experience are yours. (And do you even wash the M5 yourself, I doubt you do.) Saying things like "Armor All aged the rubber worse than no treatment at all", just sounds extremely silly to me, and defies logic and the experience of me and a multitude of other happy users of the product. I've used it for 14 years on plastics and rubber, and it always eliminated the aging process altogether. Zero. I feel that having a friend that had a competing product has surely scewed your objectivity here. Of course their testing would be designed to make their product seem superior. Whether or not the 331 actually was better in the long run, I don't know. You stating that it DID is not verifiable proof that it did, nor is it proof that Armor All ages rubber more quickly than using no treatment at all. IMHO, that's like saying "the sky isn't blue". TO BMPNYC: If you used Armor All on leather, that's a stupid thing to do! There are plenty of specialized leather oil treatments on the market that you should have known to use. And, I am not a proponet of solely listening to vinyl, I just feel that vinyl is where everyone's primary investment should be right now. I enjoy CD's on my CD50, and feel that it's as good or better than the best digital frontend Gerry or Albert has every owned or tried, period! And it's at least as good as the best non-upsampled red book source you've heard in the studio or in your buddie's homes, too. Better in many ways, because it doesn't go through a linestage, and doesn't control volume by harming the digital domain. It controls it with the best attenuators in the world. If Wadia made an upsampling all-in-one-player (CD/DVD-A) with their terrific slow roll off digital filter (and kept it from rolling off the top octave), and sold it for under $5000, they'd really have something! |
The AQ little and big feet were made with Sorbothane (a Dupont invention, I think). Now they're made with a gel that might be related to Sorbothane. I've not heard those latest ones. The little feet made an incredible improvement between many different monitor speakers, and sand-filled stands (especially on suspended wood floors). I don't use them under my other components, because there wasn't significant improvement. I attribute this to their higher mass, and being less affected by vibration. The HT Truthlink would definitely be better suited than the Silway. If you want something even cheaper, try the Straightwire Encore. It's as neutral as any interconnect, just not as hi'rez or low in distortion as the more expensive ones. It worked perfectly with my Panasonic DVD player. DOES ANYBODY LIKE THE ORIGINAL BEDINI CLARIFIER??? I'm trying one right now... |
