Another long post. Data mining my saved posts from Home Despot I, here are some comments from posters comparing their Lencos with other turntables. Note that Dopogue used to own a VPI TNT Mk II, Alpert Porter owns a Walker and compared it with a basic Lenco (i.e. pre Direct Coupling, super-high mass plinths, etc.) with Decca arm, and Tunein4fun owns EMT 927 and 930 turntables:
06-01-04: Dopogue
Thought it was time I added my bit to this saga. Jean and I became cyberfriends some while before he started this thread, but I had zero interest in a Lenco because I have this high zoot VPI TNT with a JMW arm, Grado Reference/Reference cart, Boston Audio Mat, and an SDS to make it all sing, plus a couple of other tables, as seen here:
But Jean made a lot of sense re the Shure V15VxMR (which has now replaced the Grado) and the wondrous Music Boy interconnects, among other contributions to my sonic well-being. So, long-story short, I asked him to build me one and bought a Rube Goldberg-ish (but endearing) SME Series IIIs arm and a third-tier cart (Stanton 881S) for it.
The whole shebang came together here last Friday, so this is very much an interim report, but damn if it doesn't beat the TNT rig pretty handily -- more alive, more punch, more PRaT, more "there." And quiet as a tomb, whether or not I have the subwoofers switched in. I find all this REALLY hard to believe, but there it is. Lots more experimentation ahead, especially with carts.
I've been playing with mats -- two Spotmats I made (thanks, Malcolm), a Linn felt job, two older rubber ones (provenance unknown), and the Boston Audio graphite mat. I had high hopes for the last one, and it turned out to be the worst of the bunch, really hard-sounding and dead. The Lenco mat sounded best of all (the felt one wasn't bad), so I figured Jean really knew his stuff and I'd follow his advice and GLUE IT DOWN. Hated it, thought it drained the life out of the table, couldn't wait to get the contact cement off it (not my favorite indoor sport). Jean said I should have waited overnight, but I was afraid it would be impossible to remove then. I may try again with something like rubber cement, but for now I like it much better unattached.
Like I said, an interim report. But for anyone still on the fence about the merits and potential of the Lenco, I'm confident in saying that this is the real deal. Really.
Guess I'll have to set aside an afternoon and read the whole damn thread. Best to all, Dave Pogue
06-08-04: Dopogue
Follow-up on my battle of the titans. My "titans" are a Lenco L78 (refurbished, with 8" plinth by Jean N.) with SME IIIs arm and Stanton 881s cart, vs. my VPI TNT (early model) with JMW 10.5 arm, SDS, Shure V15VxMR cart and Boston Audio mat. Both are fed through Music Boy ICs to a new (to me) custom-built phonostage that is based on the NYAL Moscode SuperIt but with extensive mods and a tank-like tubed power supply.
Verdict: The TNT setup sounds kinda boring.
This is the reluctant conclusion of a golden-eared audiobuddy who loved the TNT so much he wanted to be first in line if I ever sold it. So much for that.
He was struck by the increased PRaT but mostly by the very natural and addicting detail the Lenco provides.
Next step: cartridge switching, once I get back a second SME armtube that's out for rewiring. This is SOME turntable. Dave
07-08-04: Palmnell
I am a long time Linnie. I have owned LP 12's for 28 years. My current Linn has an Origin Live DC motor and a Cetech carbon fibre subchassis. On a whim I bought a GL 75 and put an Origin Live modded Rega 250 and my beloved Koetsu Black on it. Holy shit, better bass, much better leading-edge dynamics and pretty remarkable imaging. This is all without a plinth. I'm just resting this beast on two lead-filled boxes. I am about to make a decent plinth and see where it goes.
07-12-04: Albertporter
I have nothing new to add to this thread except my excitement.
My Lenco / Decca / Shure V15 rig running into a EAR 834 P is not only great, it is stunning! As this continues to break in, I become more in love with it. This afternoon I played "The Streets," Original Pirate Material ('02), and I swear there are some things it does better than my Walker / Koetsu / Aesthetix rig. Sure the more expensive rig has finer graduations of detail, is more transparent and refined, but the Lenco provides a solid base, timing and contrast to the music that is addictive.
The fact one could purchase 50 of these Lenco rigs for what my reference TT [Walker] costs, no doubt clouds my judgment. There is no way I would have never considered this little inexpensive Lenco had Jean not started this thread. My sincere thanks to him.
By the way, a comment about rumble and noise that has come up in these threads from time to time. My new Soundlab Ultimate Ones arrived Saturday and I played them for at least six hours today. Alternating between the Lenco and the Walker. U-1's are capable of 24 HZ in the bass and there is no rumble and no noise from either of these turntables. Pretty amazing considering the Lenco was 150 bucks.
10-15-04: Albertporter
My Lenco is doing just fine and I am delighted with it. Now that my EAR 834P phono stage and Shure V15 cartridge are thoroughly settled in, the guys in my Tuesday night music group laugh out loud in delight at it's performance. We listen to it, my SACD player and my Walker during the same evening session. There is certainly more pleasure in the Lenco than SACD.
Certainly the Walker is better, not surprising since it and matched phono stage cost $50,000.00 more. [NB: Walker Proscenium Signature turntable, Prologue Air Suspension base, Walker Linear Air-Bearing Tonearm $30,000, Walker Audio Motor Controller $3000, Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum cartridge, $5500, Aesthetix Io Signature Dual Phono Stage $14,250] Those with less radical systems than mine would do themselves a favor by rebuilding a used Lenco and saving their budget for amps, speakers and loads of LP's.
I am grateful you started this thread. There is NO WAY would have ever considered this lowly table, that is until you challenged us to give it a try. Likely this is the best bargain in audio. A few hundred dollars for a used Lenco table, Decca arm, and Shure (or other) cartridge and you have a serious (but fun) music machine suitable for high end playback.
01-21-05: Gilbodavid
hello jean and 4anx. very exciting, and totally vindicating my experience. plain Jane Denon dl103 on OL Silver and my red beast fully finished Lenco ROCKS!! through Leak tl12+s and Quads! One with holes in it! like nothing I've ever heard, including $20,000 Avantgarde Duos with Schroeder tonearm and vastly expensive everything else!! Listening to the Stones "Black and Blue" and they sound like bloody artists. And blow me down I've just realised that your PRaT is actually the jiggy jiggy factor. Its like the roll of each note suddenly hits you and swirls through you, streams energy to every part of your body and cells go PING, and you have to MOVE. Sorry to all those who don’t understand subtle technicalities. And it wasn't there properly til I lowered the Rega to perfect vta (to within one washer width) and got the horizontal plane angle of the arm and the tightness of the arm to armboard screw right. The Rolling Stones are artists for gods sake!?!! Never before have I known music to sound like this. Its even an unmodded ear 834p phono (massive room for improvement) and twl's tweak still to do!!. I'm still going to get a Black Widow and Grado platinum, but for $40, the Denon 103 is truly jiggy jiggy. MY GOD _ Ian Drury and the Blockheads now, I'm going to explode all over holtyhelen who's a grooving mass of female pulchritude on the couch next to me... this is better than being a teenager!!! Long live the Lenco, long live jiggy jiggy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRR!!! My god "route 66" Stones again. not even a good recording!!!! ARRRRRRRR!!
03-29-05: Gilbodavid
Hello all from blackberryland. Had weird experience yesterday. Went to friend’s house where one of my systems is set up, to collect Leak tl12+'s for me, and give them my old Quad 306 amp instead. Plugged it into Quad ESL57's and a modded Lenco with Alphason Opal arm and one of those old Goldring mm carts, and a Phi phono stage, and it sounded as good as with the Leaks. Then the weird bit. I took out my £120 precious metals interconnects and put in some unburned in Petra Music Boy cables... Oh my God... I can safely say it was the best recorded sound I have ever heard. stunning and super weird. The best previously was $20,000 Avantgarde Trios with high end German table and arm and exotic valve amps at a demo. My system simply devastated it. All the traits Jean gives to Petra cable were there, with airiness and gorgeous imaging and texture and PRAT in musical, blissful abundance. For the first time ever I played classical music, Rodrigo’s concerto, and I was there. This is weird. Very nicely weird....Cos This system was $800 speakers, $8 interconnects, 30 cents speaker cable, $160 amp, $150 home made passive pre, $200 Lenco, $110 arm, free cart, and $500 phono stage. Total $1928.30, which we all know is not a lot. In this room this system is awe inspiring. Why? Synergy? Luck? Magic? Voodoo? Quads have no bass? Who cares? Last night I was there! Friend has assured me that today its still happening. Weird... With 2.5mm copper speaker cable. What will happen if I do 24 gauge & Dave's no phono plug trick?
06-21-05: Flyingred
I finished my solid American ash Lenco this evening! Influenced by the first 6moons Garrard 301 article I thought it would be so much nicer to build a plinth from solid hardwood.
I bought some ash and American cherry. Because the ash was cheaper I used that first. I started after Jean's solid coupled destroyer experiment so routed the top layer so that the plate under the platter could be screwed to the plinth.
The ash is 20mm thick and I have made it 4 layers deep, with a layer of black sound damping material between layers 2 and 3, with a separate armboard so that I can swap tonearms.
I decided to use a miter saw so that no end grain is showing.
I fitted my old Fidelity Research FR64s, that my Linn dealer condemned for having worn bearings in 1996. Of course the bearings are fine - some people will say anything to sell a tonearm! First cartridge in is my re-tipped Koetsu Black, again mid-80s vintage.
I have had a fantastic evening's listening. The Lenco is everything claimed here and more. As forecast by Jean, there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic), fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning.
I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them - I'm not sure yet whether it's better than a Galibier I heard a few weeks ago but it's pretty close. I'll be better able to comment when I put the DL-103 on the FR64.
There's no doubt in my mind that the Lenco is preferable to the Teres 265 and 360, Nottingham Spacedeck and Hyperspace, SME 10, Kuzma Stabi and of course my old Linn.
07-07-05: Musicdoc
I bought an LP12 with Valhalla and Ittok initially and was quite pleased for a while. for me (and my ten thumbs), set-up issues plagued that particular table. I heard a basic Teres setup and promptly sold the Linn as the sound quality bested the Linn by an embarrassingly large margin. I then had a Teres 245 with Moerch dp-6 and Allaerts mc-1b. Unfortunately, my Teres had problems of its own (recurrent motor controller faults, cracked base that had to be replaced, etc. etc.). I now use a modified Lenco L-75 with Moerch dp-6 arm and Denon DL-160 cartridge and have achieved what is easily the best sound (and reliability) to date.
12-09-05: Rnm4
Well I suppose I'll pony up now.
It's been about three weeks since I became the proud owner of a fully rebuilt and replinthed Lenco-78, which Jean Nantais himself worked up for me, in exchange for some other gear I had that was of interest to him. Here's the story.
I had been occasionally peeking at this thread for quite a while, and supposed that these old idler wheels must sound right nice, but that the claims for their superiority to vastly more expensive, newer, more famous designs must be rather overblown. I had the chance to hear a couple of Jean's designs in his own system, and was very impressed. I had a bit of cash lying about, so got a second hand L78. I had wanted a second table for a second system anyway, and thought I'd see how this sounds compared with my Nottingham Interspace/Interspace arm combination in my Nait3/Flatcap/ Proac Tablette Signature 50 system.
With Jean's help, slowly, stage by stage, the table got reconditioned. First a general, if superficial clean and set up, with a good but unknown old MM cartridge. The pace and drive and boogeying musicality of the Lenco were immediately apparent. But the sound nothing like as detailed and clean as with my Nott. I had made the mistake of leaving the suspension on the Lenco engaged. When the suspension got bypassed, there was a huge improvement. Everything tightened up -- imaging, attack and decay, slam, resolution throughout the entire frequency range, and more extension on top. But still, the Nottingham had more sparkle and space, and, if less drive, then yet better extension on top, and resolution.
Next stage, full cleaning and recondition of the motor on the L78, and some damping materials added. Things get really close now, the Lenco excelling at coherence and PRaT, the Nottingham good at those, but still more resolving, clean and satisfying.
Then more damping and replacing the stock IC's with Music Boys. Big difference again. The Lenco is approaching the Nottingham in resolution and imaging, getting nearly the same high frequency extension, and clearly bettering it in bass boogy and getting the musical picture to cohere. And this is the stock plinth and arm, as well as an unknown 20+ year old MM. (All along it's been a Shure M97HE Era IV on the Nottingham -- also got in trade from Jean, and simply fantastic). Well obviously it's time to sell the Nottingham and go the rest of the way with the Lenco.
This table is leagues ahead of anything I've had in my system before - and it sets a tremendous standard. I now have an assured means of evaluating the rest of my system as it evolves, and the quality of the vinyl and music I am buying. This TT is not imposing limits. More important, I get a whole new level of enjoying the music.
07-13-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Jean,
Thanks for your inspiring input. I do agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say: "Each must adjust his 'table combo to match his or her system, these are like complex instruments in their own right!" That turntables in general are amongst the most complex creatures out there, as far as "getting them right" is concerned, I would be the first to admit, but to say that each must adjust his own table combo to match their own system, I feel is perhaps stretching it a bit. My own tables (Garrard 301 (all types), 401, TD124, EMT 930st, 927F, 938 and 950) all have been with me for many, many years, and been played through a lot of shifting electronics and speakers during this time. They are all very good TT:s and consistently performing accordingly, regardless of the rest of the system. Others, like SP10, LP12 and others, have proved to be, at least to me, more inconsistent and perhaps "system dependent". Therefore, when I play my Lenco, that's what I'm looking for, a consistent, solid performance, that can compare with the above machines. My opinion is that if you have an "ultra-solid-table" and the system still doesn't sing or sounds perhaps poorly balanced or whathaveyou - then it's not turntable tuning that you should be thinking about...on the other hand if you know that your system sounds balanced and performs in a satisfatory way except when playing vinyl, then...the TT probably is where it's at.
So methinks that it's all about keeping track of what your point of reference is, and preferably just introduce a single system change/mod/alteration at a time to be able to tell what was responsible for what at the end of the day. This method is, however quite time-consuming as we all know, and can test anyone's patience, but still...
When I listen to any TT (including the L75 in my new plinth), I compare it to my above "references", of which, the EMT 927F, sitting in its EMT shock-absorber frame, on overall balance is the best TT I have ever heard so far.
At the same time, I already know just how good a "good" Lenco can sound, and I gather from what I've been reading in this fantastic thread, that many contributors feel that Jean's method brings this machine right up there, with the very best - so you bet I'll persist - far too important stuff to "ignore".
After all: MUSIC MATTERS MOST! or in short; 3M! - so there's no room for "chance" or "leaving well alone" - more like FULL THROTTLE on this one (;-)
Thanks again for the great input - I'll keep posting any progress I might make.
Thanks Mike for the clarification - greatly appreciated!
Cheers
Peter
07-25-06: Tunein4fun
SUCCESS AT LAST!!! Have worked almost around the clock on my Monster L75. Done it all (apart from gluing the mat to the platter...I will, I will...) - tried various bolting patterns (2 - 12 woodscrews in the pan) and added the top layer to the plinth - the 4 mm bolts are discarded and in their place are sturdy 40 mm woodscrews - drilled up the bolt-holes straight through the chassis. Did some complementary work on the chassis damping, put an Ortofon AS-212 with a Denon DL-103D (playing through old UTC 1950's vintage step up trannies (Petra Music Boys) into my 1958 EICO HF-85).
What can I say, Jean (!!!) and all you other guys who've been so supportive and helpful: GOBSMACKED!!!
I truly couldn't believe it when I heard even the first note being played (it happened to be soft piano entertainment/easy listening piano) - the AIR around that single tiny gentle chord...and then it just went on and on and on...PRAT...DUUUUUUUUUUUDES!!! - now I know what you mean - I had imagined something darn good, judging from the very positive comments from so many contributors - but it's better still; it's just all there (including some minor electrical noise, that I need to sort out) and in such a beautiful way.
I'm humbled and feel obliged to thank Jean again for creating and researching (working-really-really-hard-over-a- long-period-of-time) this "DIY" venture into pretty damn serious TT teritory - THANKS MAN!!!
As many of you have read; I tried this and I tried that and I was (almost) ready to call it a day - but hey, had I put this much work into it already, I just had to see it through, and I'm truly glad I did. To anybody considering taking this project on, I can just say WOOOWW!!! and GO FOR IT!!!.
Cheers
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Krenzler and Peter and thanks; the "differences" from "before" are many; I took the time to experiment with the number of screws in the pan - I tried to go about it in a "systematic way", tapping as I went along: I started off with 2 screws, located in the two original existing holes, that are used to bolt the L75 down to its original plinth (they are at 12 & 6 o'clock. From there, I used other existing holes and added some of my own whenever I felt I didn't get the "thud" I was looking for in that particular area. I ended up with 12 screws in the pan - they are not large screws, and they have been tightened so that when tapping the pan anywhere (i.e. in any area supported by the plinth) I get the same kind of "thud" i.e. it sounds uniformly the same (as far as I can tell anyway).
I'm sure that the same result can be had, using another number of screws, positioned differently from mine. As mentioned previously; earlier I had left out the top layer of the plinth (i.e. the ply layer with the "big round hole" - for the pan - in it). This meant that the chassis part, surrounding the pan was "sailing in the wind". I know Jean mentioned to me that he - with some player at least - had heard very little difference soundwise, coming out from bolting down that particular chassis bit, so I didn't think much of it. What I found on my Monster L75, was that adding more chassis damping material (almost completely filling it up) and bolting down the chassis edge (i.e. the outer lower edge of the entire square chassis) made a huge difference. Jean earlier quoted Shindo, who said he used woodscrews to bolt the Garrard to his plinth instead of the original Garrard bolts, 'cos of the superior coupling he got that way. So I thought I've got nothing to lose, trying the same trick. The sad part is that I did most of these "changes" in one go, so it's impossible to recap what each alteration actually accomplished. However, I intend to make another MegaMonsterL75 (inspired by Jean's reports on the improvemnt of adding even more mass) and hopefully on that one, I will be able to keep a log to try to find out what does what.
There is no material whatsoever, between the pan-bottom and the plinth - it's bolted solid to the wood.
Peter, mounting the Ortofon arm, wasn't all that difficult - I enlarged the original Lenco armhole, so that the Ortofon base could pass through it (these bases come in taller and shorter versions - I used a shorter one). I made a tonearm-board from an LP12 tonearm-board - this is only supported by and coupled to the plinth in the corners via quite small woodscrews (just gripping and then a tiny bit more). I will post some pix later.
The Monster still isn't properly supported or "ideally located" but it doesn't seem to care.. it simply produces stunning music (;-D
I was playing some Jimmy Smith this morning - an old 1960's US Verve (stereo) - geeeeeeez...I'll say it again; I'm GOBSMACKED!!! It's beyond "audio", as Jean put it (;-)
07-26-06: Reinderspeter
Tunein4fun,
Out of curiosity, where does this leave the Lenco in comparison to your EMTs?
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Reinderspeter...curiosity killed the cat...and I have yet to A-B these machines, but my very convincing gut feeling is that the Monster is superior in quite a few areas (the most "natural PRAT" I have ever heard for one). The first time I heard a 930 play, it was an eye-opener for real, and I just had to have one. It took me a very long time to track down a 927, but when I finally got the chance to hear one play, I was impressed out of my shoes - it was so much better - the best TT I had ever heard overall - took me an even longer time to locate one that was for sale... The feeling I have, listening to my Monster is much stronger still - I really do lack words, but to use some; gobsmacking, flabbergasting, astonishing, mind-blowing - I-HUMBLY-ADMIT-I-HAD-NO-IDEA; it's that sort'a out-of-this-world kind'a thing - by far the biggest kicker in my entire audio-life (been into "audio" for 35 years and especially TTs). This is not a "linear" improvement on other TTs - it's a GIANT LEAP for vinyl reproduction. So I would say; THE MONSTER RULES! I will eventually, for fun or "for the record" do some A-B when time permits, and post whatever results I get here.
Short version: The Monster is simply one heck of a TT!
Plans for the MegaMonster are already in the back of my mind - some ideas lurking about, and a couple of things I'd like to try. Please note that this attempt is not at all prompted by any urge to "improve" on the Monster (I'm not touching the Monster...it's faaar tooo goood for that) - simply to have fun - yup (;-)- afterall that's what life's (almost...) all about methinks.
Even with the plain or "lowly" Shure M75 the Monster excels and shines in the most enchanting way, regardless of what I throw at it music-wise - a fact that probably will put whatever little "credibility" I have, on the line with some people, but hey; so be it!!!
I realize that I have used some pretty strong wording in this post and if somebody reading this, thinks that I'm exaggerating or that I'm "over the top"...think again (;-)
KUDOS JEAN!!!
