2. analog
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Questions about SACD vs.analog for classical music

I've just ordered a VPI Scoutmaster. A rather impulsive decision made at just the point when I was about to have my Sony 9000es modded. Not quite just at the point, but right after I removed my Hw-19jr/pt-6/Glider/blackcube rig from storage in order to get the parts ready for shipping to they new owners. I had what i thought would be my last night listening to the TT, after a several year hiatus, and you know what? There was that organic something, that harmonic coherence in certain recordings that I noticed only in the very best SACDs. In some of my LPs, that 'present' or 'real' feeling exceeded all but one or two of my SACDs (only the Rite of Spring on Telarc, a few tracks from the telarc classical sampler 2, and one other were superior to anything I heard on the VPI). OK, the SACDs were obviously cleaner sounding and more extended (I was using Stax sr-lambda phones) except when compared to a couple of the highest quality analogue productions lps I own, but it got me thinking: hey, if my humble jr. sounds this good now, I can only wonder how good one of the purportedly much improved high-end rigs would sound. The Sony mods would have cost upwards of $1300, but selling my jr. and lumping all that dough together and allocating it to a renewed involvement in analog looked, well, promising.
So I ordered a new Scoutmaster (at substantial discount) with the JMW-9 arm and am now by the way researching my options for cartridges and preamps. I've sold my blackcube, but have a Jolida JD-9 on load from a dealer, which sounds very nice with the jr. (the sold TT about to be shipped) - very vivid and harmonically satisfying, well articulated, etc - though it's not as quiet as the 'Cube and I even can hear some AM radio coming through my phones when I turn up my linestage preamp volume. But here I digress.
My main reason for starting this thread, aside from having some assorted questions about carts, preamps, and the like, is to ask for some objective and subjective opinions regarding the decision I just made. Bear in mind that my main interest is classical music, especially chamber (esp. string quartets, trios, wind quintets, etc) and piano with some orchestral, followed by classic rock and some Blue-Note era jazz. The SACD route seemed promising at first, and I told myself that, even though there were only a smattering of sacd recordings for many of my favorite classical performers (eg. Elly Ameling Soprano, Yo-Yo Ma, Rubinstein), there were so many truly talented lesser-knowns on the sacd scene (e.g. pianist Freddy Kempf on BIS, Csaba and Heisser on Praga digitals, and of course Paavo Jaervi on Telarc) that I deemed my chances of attaining long-term satisfaction with purely sacd (and a little redbook on the side) to be very good. Especially after sacd mods. As for classic rock, the SACD of the Police Synchronicity just blew me away (through Sennheiser HD600w/cardas cable).
But THEN it occurred to me that the only way to possibly hear my very favorite string quartet - the Vegh Quartet - in better than redbook fidelity was through vinyl. Ditto for numerous other performers who will never appear on sacd. Then of course there's always the Beatles, Stones, Jerry Garcia and others to sweeten the deal for vinyl. By the way, I sold my Ikemi redbook player in order to open up some new options and try something new. Even my girlfriend almost cried to see the Ikemi go, her having been converted just enough to an audiophile that she could absolutely see someone justifying having spent almost four grand on a source component (even a non-disc changer)
So what do you guys think? When my scoutmaster arrives, am I in for some visceral thrills and deep musical connection? I know that it's also dependent on the rest of my system, and so far I've narrowed cart choices down to the Lyras and the Shelters, leaning heavily towards the former. As for phono preamps I'm considering the Linto, Ear 834p mm/mc, and a few others including a modded Jolida JD-9 or something along those lines.

Is the scoutmaster, fitted with a $1000+ cartridge and a similarly priced phono preamp, going through Cardas golden reference into either a Bryston B60 integrated (and then to Sennheisers or B&wdm603) OR into a Stax srm-t1 tube driver of my Stax electrostats, going to 'knock my socks off' as suggested by Mike at VPI yesterday? How close can I get to SACD (especially to the 'pure DSD') fidelity through this setup? I know speed stability and noise floor will be drastically improved, giving tones accuracy and timbral accuracy, and i expect bass to be better and overall macro and microdynamics as well BUT... am I going to be able to achieve some of the same absolutely organic, sparkling, and pure sound of some of the better DSD recordings? What about the musical clarity per se of redbook, in particular when listening to string quartets and the like? Will I get a 'clean' sound in the tonal sense, not overly dark, but a sound that seems right? What about the upper octave of piano?
I once read an article long ago (i believe it was in stereophile) in which the author admitting to prefering cassette tape over vinyl due to it having cleaner and more pitch accurate upper octave reproduction. That was then, this is now. What do you guys think? (last time I'll ask that, I promise!)

Ted
tedd1
lazarus28
339 posts
 
sorry dgad - i disagree. it isn't absolute, no matter how badly you want it to be. i owned a Teres 265 table with an SME V arm and a Van den Hul Colibri cartridge. SACD is more real to my ears. period. i don't like the euphonic additions that vinyl playback has. (well, not so much that i don't like them, they just aren't real)

your argument that anyone who has both prefers vinyl is invalid.

in fact - there's another regular on the asylum who posted that if he'd bought his EMM gear before investing in a rockport, he'd never have bought the TT. (i'm going from memory here, so it's a praphrase, at best)

you can prefer vinyl all you want, but don't pull this "you've never heard good vinyl before" BS on me, because i've heard about as quality vinyl playback as you can, and i prefer digital. (short of a rockport, of course. i'd still love to hear one)
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Lazarus28...I have sworn off expressing any opinion about vinyl vs high res digital (you want to see the tooth marks?) but I must agree that the "you've never heard good vinyl before" remark is tiresome.
cjfrbw
148 posts
 
I have heard the Emm labs stuff a couple of times on a couple of high end setups. Vinyl is still superior in two channels, although the Emm labs stuff does sound good.
However, I would say that multi channel SACD is a contender for classical music . I don't especially care for two channel SACD, but multi channel SACD is incomparable for dynamics, ambient recovery, and the kind of silent background and low noise that you want for classical. I couldn't argue that multi channel SACD is not a superior delivery medium for classical music.
I still subconsciously reach for the vinyl first.
Lots of tales of guys who have gone for the digital dream, only to go back to vinyl again after months or years, even with the high end digital stuff.
stefanl
296 posts
 
This argument begs the question in a number of ways.Firstly SACD or 1 Bit DSD is inferior to Multi-Bit PCM and Sony was forced a while ago to admit that they mastered in PCM and later DOWNSAMPLED the PCM Master to a DSD Master for commercial production.Secondly the Frequency Responses of SACD are not linear as the Roll-Off at 50Khz and Noise-Shaping required lead to massive Pink-Noise artefacts at 45KHz,which is sufficient to warm your Super-Tweeters and the Frequency Response between 5Khz-10Khz is inferior to that of CD.I have dumped COLD WATER on your arguments in favour of SACD.Please lift this debate to the required level of Audiogon and sane thinking Vinyl lovers everywhere(Humans).
dgad
782 posts
 
Lazarus28,

I had a feeling after posting my response I might get a few who disagree. I will agree that unless your vinyl setup is at the very top the EMM is better. I had to upgrade my Vinyl setup significantly to better the EMM. I don't want to make light of your analogue setup, it is a very good one, but you do have colorations from your vinyl setup. I do feel that you are close to the top in analogue setups out there but you can improve on it. I have played the EMM setup for numerous listeners. We all agree it is very close. It is just that Analogue sounds more real. The choice in cartridge & tonearm etc will determine the coloration - if any. The EMM is also slightly colored & can be a little dry.

The statement you are referring to re: an Audiogon member stating that if he didn't have his Rockport he might not have purchased one after hearing the EMM. But on further clarification one Rockport owner has more than clearly indicated that he preferred Analogue to the EMM setup. This is the question I asked before I upgraded my Analogue front end. After I purchased my EMM setup I realized what digital was capable of (my previous CD player was an Audio Aero Capitole Mk II, no slouch, but extensively bettered by analogue from bass to treble and more). I also noticed that the midrange was still slightly but noticeably superior on Vinyl. I then asked many people who owned both the EMM stack & a top end Analogue setup, via private emails, if Analogue can better the EMM setup and at what level. All responded that in their systems they prefer analogue. They also all mentioned they are happy with their EMM gear. Now if I relied on hearsay I might still be second guessing. In my system it is easy to hear the superiority of vinyl over the EMM. You might call it my preference for the coloration of Vinyl. I would then say that every piece of equipment has coloration as does the EMM so your argument really makes no sense to me.

Now although it is easy to hear, it is still very very close. Weighing the convenience and availability of CD / SACD material does have advantages. One thing that I have doubts about is that pure DSD recordings are incredible & do challenge Analogue. I have a few and I find them incredible. The original PCM recordings are often poor. I have several LPs which I have either on CD or SACD. Except for the DSD recordings I find the LPs more real & enjoyable.
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