Horns and Triodes...?


Buddy of mine is interested in (anguishing over, really) building a system based on a pair of super-efficient horns and a low-powered triode amp. As this stuff tends to run even more towards the esoteric than the regular esoteric fare around these parts ("guy in X building out of his basement/garage...") upping the comfort level prior to taking a leap of faith (let alone actually listening to something first) is turning out to be darn near impossible.

Personally, being that I run Thiels and a huge sucking monster of an amplifier (relatively speaking), I know bubkis about this stuff -- so I throw myself at the mercy of the collective wisdom.

What's worked for folks? Is there anything or anyplace to listen in the NYC area? Tastes are running towards the exceptionally spartan, relatively cheap, diamond in the ruff among the recently-post-home-brew-eque market (if that makes any sense) with a focus on piano more than anything, if it were necessary to choose. Likely to be using a single source, too, so we're really talking no frills. Pointers?
mezmo
This should keep him occupied for the next year or so:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/HUG/bbs.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/bbs.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/bbs.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/bbs.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/bottlehead/bbs.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/welborne/bbs.html

http://melhuish.org/audio/
I'm not from the NYC area but reply to Dave from this thread. If you can make the Oct 14 event with Alan Wright that would be a bonus in my book. Have to act really fast! If you are too late still email him. He is involved in lots of activities in the NYC area and is always willing to answer Q's online. Friendly type.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/messages/38603.html

Here is a picture of Dave's system:
http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/slagle/slagle.htm

He will certainly get you in touch with low power HE speaker types in the NYC area. A nice chance to meet and talk to experts in your neck of the woods.

If you are into homebrew try Welborne and diyhifi kits.
After listening to the latter I've just orderd the former just for fun.

Need to have a budget to get very specific about recomendations.

I remain,
I can contribute a recent experience that might help...I don't know really, but I think it is interesting:

If you check out my "Virtual System" you'll see I use a system similar to what your friend is contemplating. I love the sound it produces, and yes, it is unusual, distinctive, eclectic if you will. I've been through quite a few different tube amps to find out that this is probably my favorite overall type of system. I'm going to limit my comments to those more easily understood by a layperson (which is what I'd consider myself anyway), mostly cause my technical vocabulary in this hobby is limited. I do know what I like when I hear it though. So here goes:

Last night I brought home my beloved Quicksilver MiniMites that power my work system. I had a bit of a SNAFU covered on another recent thread and needed to bring them home for a complex surgical extraction (see the thread). Once the operation was complete I thought, why not plug in these amps in place of my 300B SET's in my home system (also much beloved) and give that combination a try. I had some idea's of what I thought the results would be given the variables: 300B SET mono amps putting out 8 watts per side vs KT88 Push/Pull amps putting out 35 watts per side. I loved both amps in their respective systems, but had never tried moving them. In my home system I'd be putting the push-pull MM's with my 104db efficient LaScala's (horn based). I am very used to the sound of the SET's at home on that system...when I plugged in the MM's and fired up some Gillian Welch the sound was, now I'm being very critical here as I'm definitely spoiled by SET there, rather brash and 'vulgur' for the lack of a better word. It sounded like amplified music. The soundstage was narrowed, the warm glow I so love with the SET amps was gone replaced by a punchy and crystalline detail at the center which seemed to grow more and more vague as the stage went out to it's rather limited width. Gone too was the holographic feeling of the SET. Bass was there like the SET could never duplicate, and was a bit too much for my tastes. The bass also lacked some definition. Drums did not sound like drums, they sounded like amplified drums. I left the system on overnight and listened again in the morning....not much better. I packed up the MM's and hooked the SET's back up. Fired up the same disk. It's like being at a warm fire...all of a sudden you are listening to the real thing. The instruments have a shape and a 'glow' somehow to them. There is a naturalness to the music. With the MM and the LaScala's I was reminded of many detractor's comments about horn speakers sounding more like someone shouting at you (yet if you read on you will see they do not have that effect at all with other horns). SET seems to me to color the music, but in a way that is oh so attractive and engaging to me.....in warm hues of oranges, yellows and reds that draw you in and envelope you. One thing I've also come to love about this sound is that its effect is NOT lost when you leave the sweet spot. Walking around all parts of the house the warmth and 'presence' of the sound is still there. Soundstage and holography of course are gone, but the glow is still a very present and pleasing element.

So here is what is confusing to me about all of this. I bring back the MM's to where they came from in my studio sytem, which is slightly less efficient horns from the same 'family' (Klipsch Heresys - 94db), and that combination is utterly magical and engaging. The soundstage is huge, the sound is musical and toe-tap factor way up there. Holography is present. It is not the same warm 'glow' from the SET at home, but then again, it is far away from the very brash sounds the MM's made when they were installed in that system at home. So what gives?!

The only explanation that I can offer is simply one of synergy. Different pre-amps, sources cables and rooms are working against the MM's in the home system. It would be interesting to bring my SET amps to work as I'd like to see what that sounded like. I have moved my two pre-amps back and forth and it makes a profound difference in the sound of the systems. Each is much 'happier' with the pre-amp I've chosen for it. Anyway, I'm really happy with both systems, but I can tell you for sure that my experience of SET is one that is entirely distinctive of any other form of amplification I have heard. It does lack a full range, though the SET amps I have are pretty strong in bass and quite enough for my tastes. But if you are used to and like the SS low range punch you will be likely disappointed with SET lack of that quality. SET is all about a liquid midrange, holography and this kind of nebulous glowing warmth. It does sound colored to my ears, but you can color me happy! I am certain that it is not necessarily a sound that everyone would like, so your friend is right to seek out a good example he can listen to. Unfortunately I am on the other coast and it's been over ten years since I lived in NYC (my home town), so I don't know the high-end shops and their wares anymore. You can send him to a real extreme and have him visit Avante Garde's showroom, though those are not really single-source horns. He may be able to find some resources on the Single Driver Website under the links there.

Hope that can be of some help.

Marco
Look up Jeff Korneff (username is something like tryaudio, but I'm not finding it today). Stunning workmanship, well-respected amps. Home-built, but showroom quality work. Reasonable, too, though it doesn't sound like you've mentioned a specific budget.

http://groups.msn.com/korneffvacuumtube
I also like the Jeff Korneff amps. You might consider Jack Elliano's Ultrapath preamp too. That is getting a bit of attention lately.

For the speakers, the DIY route is very popular with the triode/horn crowd. For real front-loaded horns, try the Oris 150, kit or built. It uses a powered subwoofer under 150Hz, but can use low power SET above 150Hz. If you like a back-loaded horn, then the Hedlund Horns are a nice project, or you can get them already built by Hornet Audio. Not real cheap, but nice. Another nice back horn is the Lammhorn 1.8(not a kit). For the cheapest, but still very good sounding single driver Voigt Pipe setup, try the Cain and Cain Abby's or even making your own with Lowther or Fostex drivers. Easy woodworking, no crossover to build, and very nice sound when done right. You might be able to keep the whole package of source, preamp, amp, and speakers and cables under $5k, if you are a good shopper and do some DIY. And this would yield very excellent sound too.