Where do classical vinyl records get their rumble from?

Richard,

These comments should be viewed as food for thought as you work through this problem.  Nothing more, but based on my experience here goes.  First, and please don’t abuse me for this one, I often prefer my CDs to my vinyl for classical listening for their superior signal to noise ratio.  Second, the best idler wheel drive TT in the world is still no match for either a good belt drive or a good direct drive when it comes to rumble.  For boogie factor they are hard to beat, but for your classical listening, IMHO stick with your Holbo, which is inherently quieter.  Finally, and perhaps the most difficult one, you might have a resonance problem.  I am finding this situation is very common and very difficult to resolve.  It has to do with the combined effective mass of tonearm, cartridge and headshell that is supported by the cantilever taking into account the compliance of the cantilever.  This gets complicated, but what you are describing could very definitely be caused by a resonance issue.   I wish it were possible to offer to measure your turntables for you using AnalogMagik, but there are equations available to allow you to estimate what yours should be.  The target is 8Hz-12Hz both lateral and vertical.  From your description, you might be well outside the range particularly in the lateral plane.  

@billstevenson 

First, and please don’t abuse me for this one, I often prefer my CDs to my vinyl for classical listening for their superior signal to noise ratio

I would never intentionally abuse you, of all people!  You are one of the most generous guys around here.

I switched to CDs almost as soon as they came out.  By a series of coincidences, I was able to visit Quad in Huntingdon and the legendary Peter Walker came to the counter.  I asked him in my best new-Australian accent what he thought of these new-fangled CDs and he simply said "they are fantastic".  At that time Quad only made electrostatic speakers and amplifiers so there was no vested interest, though I doubt that would have entered Peter's mind.

I have only got back into vinyl to see what all the fuss is about.  I have found out that it takes quite an investment to get to some sort of parity with CDs, while SACDs and Pure Audio Blu-ray remain my preferred source.  The big advantage of vinyl is its involvement - I never know what crud will accumulate on the stylus or whether new defects will pop up.

One thing I have noticed on records is that the run-out area is often much quieter than the program area, which again makes me think it is the record, not the player.

Or could it be that the music interacts with the stylus/arm resonance to create what I called rumble, but should probably have called record noise?

The target is 8Hz-12Hz both lateral and vertical.  From your description, you might be well outside the range particularly in the lateral plane

I have used a test disc from Tacet (L210) which has tracks to detect pick-up arm resonance. Basically, simultaneous tones of 1000-Hz and 1125-Hz are superimposed by a low frequency tone in steps of 1-Hz from 5-Hz to 15-Hz.  The Holbo / DS Audio clearly resonates at 6-Hz.  I thought it might move up the scale as the cartridge breaks in, and it is very early days.

I have no way of knowing whether this is lateral or vertical resonance.

Using the Tacet test record, I can detect no resonance from my Garrard 301 / SME 3009 / AT VM540ML combination.

@elliottbnewcombjr 

My high-pass filter switch (the on/off for my subwoofer) was ineffective.  I am stunned by how low my KEF Reference 1 stand-mount (bookshelf?) speakers actually go.  6dB down at 30-Hz.  Fortunately, I already had my subwoofer (3dB down at 14-Hz) before I bought the KEFs.

Could be why I am hearing more record noise than most!

Richard, 

As an experiment try adding 3 or 4 grams to the headshell on your Holbo, and then rebalance the arm and give it a listen.  You don't need to get fancy, a steel washer and some Scotch tape or such will do in a pinch.  If it solves the problem you can tidy up later with something more permanent.

Bill

RB, Your wrote: 

"I have used a test disc from Tacet (L210) which has tracks to detect pick-up arm resonance. Basically, simultaneous tones of 1000-Hz and 1125-Hz are superimposed by a low frequency tone in steps of 1-Hz from 5-Hz to 15-Hz.  The Holbo / DS Audio clearly resonates at 6-Hz.  I thought it might move up the scale as the cartridge breaks in, and it is very early days.

I have no way of knowing whether this is lateral or vertical resonance.

Using the Tacet test record, I can detect no resonance from my Garrard 301 / SME 3009 / AT VM540ML combination."

Good point about the source of the resonance.  Since very low frequencies are said to be encoded by lateral movement of the stylus tip, you would think this is mostly lateral but I don't know either.

Your notion that the resonant frequency of your Holbo/cartridge may go up as the cartridge breaks in is not in keeping with the formula for resonant frequency which states that Fr is inversely proportional to both effective mass and compliance.  So, as compliance goes up during break in (I think this is what you were assuming), that would cause Fr to go down, not up.  But the change would be so tiny as to be irrelevant, because the inverse proportionality is to the square root of M*C. Likewise, if you want to raise Fr, try a lighter headshell (to decrease effective mass), not weights on your present headshell.

Finally, if your Tacet test LP cannot make the SME/AT combo resonate at all, then I would question its usefulness, unless Fr for that combo is either below 5Hz (unlikely) or above 15Hz (possible). But every tonearm/cartridge will resonate at some frequency or other.