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Where do classical vinyl records get their rumble from?

Recently converted back to vinyl from silver disks, I am struck by how much rumble seems to be inherent in the new and used vinyl I am buying.

A case in point, is a recent Deutsche Grammophon (DG) recording (487 7484) of Mahler’s Second Symphony made at a live performance at the Sydney Opera House (I was there).  The first set I bought was amongst the dirtiest pressings I have ever had, but the second set was much improved.  However, there is a persistent rumble whether played on my Holbo Mk2 air bearing system or my venerable Garrard 301 (new bearing from Classic Turntable Company).

Mahler typically has huge dynamic range, from muted off-stage performers to hundreds of musicians going hell-for-leather.

The rumble could be partly caused by the venue’s air conditioning system, but I hear similar background on a Telarc recording (Stereo 10051) of Saint Saens Organ Symphony made in Philadelphia.  Telarc even arranged to have local roads shut down for the recording sessions.

Similar efforts were made by DG when recording the organ at Notre Dame in Paris, where recording was done late at night to reduce traffic noise.  My copy includes Dolby Atmos on Pure-Audio Bly-ray (DG 486 1466).

I was beginning to think the rumble was inherent in my tables, but then I played a German Direct Metal Mastered (DMM) set from In-Akustik for Clearaudio’s 40th anniversary (INAK 78051 2LP).  It includes some Telarc tracks.  This set has the quietest background I’ve never heard.  There is virtually no rumble, exonerating my tables.

So apart from the recoding venue’s air conditioning and traffic noise, why do so many classical records seem to have built-in rumble?  Could it be from the mastering lathe?

I am really only thinking about classical recordings where the dynamic range approximates the signal to noise ratio of vinyl, meaning that very low-level signals are musically important, while simultaneously bumping against the noise floor.

richardbrand
elliottbnewcombjr
7,695 posts
 

@richardbrand 

In the recesses of my mind, in another system, I have heard what you are describing.

I cannot remember the last time I used my LF Cut/Rumble filter,

except recently, when I mismatched my high compliance V15VxMR cartridge with the wrong arm.

I know you think it's the LP, I'm kind of hoping it's something that's a speck off that would eliminate it for all LPs.

billstevenson
1,164 posts
 

Richard,

These comments should be viewed as food for thought as you work through this problem.  Nothing more, but based on my experience here goes.  First, and please don’t abuse me for this one, I often prefer my CDs to my vinyl for classical listening for their superior signal to noise ratio.  Second, the best idler wheel drive TT in the world is still no match for either a good belt drive or a good direct drive when it comes to rumble.  For boogie factor they are hard to beat, but for your classical listening, IMHO stick with your Holbo, which is inherently quieter.  Finally, and perhaps the most difficult one, you might have a resonance problem.  I am finding this situation is very common and very difficult to resolve.  It has to do with the combined effective mass of tonearm, cartridge and headshell that is supported by the cantilever taking into account the compliance of the cantilever.  This gets complicated, but what you are describing could very definitely be caused by a resonance issue.   I wish it were possible to offer to measure your turntables for you using AnalogMagik, but there are equations available to allow you to estimate what yours should be.  The target is 8Hz-12Hz both lateral and vertical.  From your description, you might be well outside the range particularly in the lateral plane.  

richardbrand's avatar
richardbrand OP
1,362 posts
 

@billstevenson 

First, and please don’t abuse me for this one, I often prefer my CDs to my vinyl for classical listening for their superior signal to noise ratio

I would never intentionally abuse you, of all people!  You are one of the most generous guys around here.

I switched to CDs almost as soon as they came out.  By a series of coincidences, I was able to visit Quad in Huntingdon and the legendary Peter Walker came to the counter.  I asked him in my best new-Australian accent what he thought of these new-fangled CDs and he simply said "they are fantastic".  At that time Quad only made electrostatic speakers and amplifiers so there was no vested interest, though I doubt that would have entered Peter's mind.

I have only got back into vinyl to see what all the fuss is about.  I have found out that it takes quite an investment to get to some sort of parity with CDs, while SACDs and Pure Audio Blu-ray remain my preferred source.  The big advantage of vinyl is its involvement - I never know what crud will accumulate on the stylus or whether new defects will pop up.angry

One thing I have noticed on records is that the run-out area is often much quieter than the program area, which again makes me think it is the record, not the player.

Or could it be that the music interacts with the stylus/arm resonance to create what I called rumble, but should probably have called record noise?

The target is 8Hz-12Hz both lateral and vertical.  From your description, you might be well outside the range particularly in the lateral plane

I have used a test disc from Tacet (L210) which has tracks to detect pick-up arm resonance. Basically, simultaneous tones of 1000-Hz and 1125-Hz are superimposed by a low frequency tone in steps of 1-Hz from 5-Hz to 15-Hz.  The Holbo / DS Audio clearly resonates at 6-Hz.  I thought it might move up the scale as the cartridge breaks in, and it is very early days.

I have no way of knowing whether this is lateral or vertical resonance.

Using the Tacet test record, I can detect no resonance from my Garrard 301 / SME 3009 / AT VM540ML combination.

richardbrand's avatar
richardbrand OP
1,362 posts
 

@elliottbnewcombjr 

My high-pass filter switch (the on/off for my subwoofer) was ineffective.  I am stunned by how low my KEF Reference 1 stand-mount (bookshelf?) speakers actually go.  6dB down at 30-Hz.  Fortunately, I already had my subwoofer (3dB down at 14-Hz) before I bought the KEFs.

Could be why I am hearing more record noise than most!

billstevenson
1,164 posts
 

Richard, 

As an experiment try adding 3 or 4 grams to the headshell on your Holbo, and then rebalance the arm and give it a listen.  You don't need to get fancy, a steel washer and some Scotch tape or such will do in a pinch.  If it solves the problem you can tidy up later with something more permanent.

Bill

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