How important is low W & F performance anyway?

@phoenixengr 

I would tend to agree, but some of the numbers are high enough it's difficult to believe that no one could hear it.  Depending on the amount and band of the frequency deviation, I wonder if even reviewers (and certainly the average listener) don't realize that they are hearing it or perhaps it is perceived as some sort of euphonics or "voicing".

I used to distribute high end in the heyday of analogue - mid 80’s.

Most audiophiles can’t hear much - I was shocked when I started distributing high end. I’m not only talking about speed and timing, but also resolution.

Many audiophiles can’t tap their foot in time.

The other issue is that with an analogue front end, even if folk can hear differences they cannot scientifically attribute those differences to a particular design feature or flaw because most of the time they are listening in an uncontrolled environment.

If you read Bruce Thigpens comments I posted above - a wonky cartridge or poor quality tonearm can generate wow and flutter, more so than the TT itself. In fact the largest contributor to wow and flutter in a live environment is eccentric records ( most are to a degree ).

My concern with Bruce Thigpen's approach is that he ignores the obvious fact that what we really need to know is what records on our turntables sound like.  So, a measurement that isolates everything except the turntable itself, although, perhaps intellectually interesting is essentially useless if we want to correlate and measure what the arm + cartridge + turntable sounds like on music.  It is the combination that we are listening to after all.  I do agree from years of observation that a surprising number of self proclaimed audiophiles don't seem to hear very well.  It has been my recent experience using AnalogMagik, which for the record measures arm + cartridge + turntable, that just as Raul said very low numbers for wow & flutter, which I will define as approximately less than or equal to 0.2%, are essentially inaudible.  At least to me.  But when I measure 0.8% or higher, that level of W & F is audible.  Again to me.  I try to verify these tests listening to sustain on piano notes, which must not waver.  It has also been my experience, reflecting what Bill has observed, that the cost of a given TT and measured performance do not always correlate.  I have set up a couple that surprised me both better than expected and worse.

@billstevenson 

I think Bruces comments above are informative in highlighting some issues where we can make big gains.

I do agree, I've always used solo piano as the hardest test for speed stability, wow etc - I grew up with a piano in the house played daily - issues to my ears on playback are obvious. It also highlighted to me in my early days that sprung suspensions were often detrimental to pitch stability, wow and flutter.

As a matter of interest my old Garrard 301 measures wow 0.04 & flutter 0.02, using the Shakenspin2, so I don't understand why any TT would measure 0.8.

My reference TT ( high mass thread drive, motor driven off sine & cosine generators plus stereo power amplifier ) is well below this level, and the improvement over the Garrard in pitch stability with the same arm/cartridge is very audible.

@billstevenson 

@phoenixengr 

"@faustuss There is no question concerning Bill’s credibility.  It makes no difference whether you find his information useful or not.  It certainly comports well with my experience and with what I have been learning since acquiring AnalogMagic.  Take it for what it is worth."

It did state early on that W & F is only going to be as good as what's on the master tape and what's introduced by the cutting lathe. So, this whole topic is rather mute.

If the OP wants to be disingenuous and insult the other posters in this thread's intelligence including yours it's his prerogative.

Am I supposed to be impressed that you spent good money on a software package called "AnalogMagik" when using tried and true methods of calibrating your equipment is more than adequate, I'm not!

"As I said, the choice is yours.  It hard to imagine how I could possibly care less either way."

Truthfully, I won't waste anymore of my time!

I agree with what's been said about listening to the LP/arm/cart as in the end, that is what we are doing.  But as an engineer working on a motor controller, my job was to make that contribution as small as possible.

Also agree that measuring it using an LP (and retail products) can give misleading results as Thigpen posited;  that's why I also chose to look at the encoders on these tables as it eliminated most of those issues.

This is the polar plot of DD1 with a 40Hz BW;  W&F is 0.16%, still much worse than their spec of 0.008%: