Striking a balance between musicality and resolution

@mahgister I also respect you very much and I appreciate how much effort you have put into the understanding and have made use of room acoustics and psychoacoustics, which are both fundamental parts of sound reproduction and perception.

Like you many focus on key elements of sound reproduction and strive to maximize them. At one point I also viewed each contribution to sound as an opportunity for optimization.

I’m a firm believer that the cost of home stereo systems is not a direct indicator  of their sound qualities and the systems’’ performance. Often times the very high value systems are set up by dealers or paid set up persons as the owners don’t know much about sound reproduction and they view their systems as status symbols and purchase them for pride of ownership. Costs is typically not indicative of performance and sound quality.

Since I value the way you dove into the room acoustics and psychoacoustics aspect of sound reproduction in the home, I will make some recordings of one of my systems this weekend playing the same songs that are on a couple of audio recordings of a system own by a well known and respected audiophile who has a very well sorted out, mature and optimized tippy top, spendy system for you to compare the sound of a very expensive system in an acoustically optimized custom dedicated sound room, which was acoustically engineered and bespoked built for the sole purpose of reproduction of music at “the highest level” with no expense spared. This way you can compare the sound of the systems for yourself.

Dear  @wsrrsw   : his main trouble inside an audio forum is that he did and does and listen to a way different recording reproduction ( that the one we all are enjoying ) due that he manipulates the recorded signal and creates a totally new recording different of what comes in the original recording and he evaluates other audiophiles room/systems against his manipulated recording and not with th orinal recording.

Yes, he can do whatever he wants due that's his unique privilege but for me and with all respect looks as something " stupid/stupidity " and not because he is stupid because it's not. I only post what for me is the whole enviroment that surround him.

R.

Anyone tuning a room do it for a located listening chair position...

The acoustics of great Hall differ greatly from small room acoustics , same principles, completely different application...

And it is a sophism to conclude that no acoustics passive treatment or no active mechanical control was necessary (or DSP ) because you claim by suggesting it ( no acoustic treatment is better)  that there is no middle way between over damped room or under damped one...

Your understanding of the power of acoustics is average , most people had no idea even audiophiles how acoustics matter ( it is a market conditioning imposed by speakers and gear sellers: buy our product you will need anything else)..

A thing i learned ...

By the way my homemade dedicated room was horrible esthetically ... 

Don’t be deceived by how any room looks. The only thing that matters and should be judged is the sound at the listening chair.

@mahgister no one said that acoustics treatments don’t sometimes yield positive contributions. All contributions to the sound can be made better individually and that is what most people do. I am not most people and I’m using my knowledge of sound reproduction, acoustics, and sound perception to approach the task in a different way, which I consider a smarter way. It is not a good or bad , black or white, or binary proposition. Acoustics tuning and the use of acoustics treatments can be done right if properly implemented by someone knowledgeable.

I’m going to do the same thing that I do with others and disarm you right here and now. Here we go so you can see how much I know about the concept of room acoustics:

1. If you know anything about room acoustics and sound perception you know that the room does not make any sound in and of itself. The room must be excited by a sound source, in the case of home audio systems the source are the speakers. The speakers are the source of the acoustical excitation of the room.

2. Each sound source excites the room uniquely based on it’s radiation pattern, which is dictated by the speakers design’s polar wave propagation and the room’s geometry.

3. The source excitation of the room various by its spectral content and scale.

4. Room acoustics can be optimized based on the source characteristics and relationships with the room’s boundaries.

5. Therefore you can optimize room acoustics for a particular source, with it’s unique radiation, spectral and scale parameters, to a particular room geometry, and to a particular spatial layout between the speakers and the room’s boundaries boundaries. It is this very unique arrangement that can be optimized and every deviation, whether is volume level or music type will be a perturbation away from optimal.

Based on the above, you cannot optimize a room’s acoustics in and of itself, any optimization must be done from a system’s perspective, factoring in the source and ambient characteristics & spatial relationships, and subject to derating from optimal by a number of factors including the temperature and humidity in the room. There are so many factors involved that when you speak of optimizing room acoustics and psychoacoustics, I just chuckle because you have no idea all that is involved and how source dependent the room’s acoustical response is. Room acoustics are a function of the excitation source.

I could go on but hopefully that gives you an indication of what’s involved and how improbable and impossible universal room acoustics optimization are.

I always specified in all my posts  that any acoustics controls must be done according to the chosen system (then according to a specific source, gear design etc) and according to listener location and ears biases and history (with, if possible in the best case,  inner ears measurements and HTRF) ..

Why?

 Because great Hall acoustics can be architecturally  thought off a-priori  without any musical instruments in it or speakers , small room acoustics in the opposite  will win to be treated and put under mechanical control or with DSP  for a specifically chosen system and not another one, for one pair of ears,the owner not for a crowd...

 Then your answer do not attack my claim about  the sound of your system i affirm is good (through mine ) but lack room control (mechanical or DSP ) ...

Thats all ...

Because you had no acoustics treatment and no mechanical control of the room or / and DSP you seems to have no idea, and do not care about it, how your system so good it could be, lack about this necessary  pairing between any system at any price at any quality level and a dedicated room where it will be embedded into as " sound source" (dac+amp+speakers) ...

Anybody can purchase speakers and amp etc even if modified by the user and improved, the job is not completed without mastery of room acoustics. Period. 

Those who contradict this are captive of a living room or of marketing or ignore basic facts in acoustics.

 I posted about your system videos because it is evident you dont care about acoustics unlike me...

A system is only so good it could be if the room is tailored made for it and your ears if not it is  an half job; for small listening room dedicated to one user especially, acoustics passsive treatment+active mechanical &/or DSP is mandatory for ultimate optimal S.Q . for any system at any price...

It is the only thing i learned in the last 20 years in audio here and elsewhere ...

I respect you  system design competency. But everyone reading this thread must know that acoustics matter as much as system design...

@mahgister no one said that acoustics treatments don’t sometimes yield positive contributions. All contributions to the sound can be made better individually and that is what most people do. I am not most people and I’m using my knowledge of sound reproduction, acoustics, and sound perception to approach the task in a different way, which I consider a smarter way. It is not a good or bad , black or white, or binary proposition. Acoustics tuning and the use of acoustics treatments can be done right if properly implemented by someone knowledgeable.

I’m going to do the same thing that I do with others and disarm you right here and now. Here we go so you can see how much I know about the concept of room acoustics:

1. If you know anything about room acoustics and sound perception you know that the room does not make any sound in and of itself. The room must be excited by a sound source, in the case of home audio systems the source are the speakers. The speakers are the source of the acoustical excitation of the room.

2. Each sound source excites the room uniquely based on it’s radiation pattern, which is dictated by the speakers design’s polar wave propagation and the room’s geometry.

3. The source excitation of the room various by its spectral content and scale.

4. Room acoustics can be optimized based on the source characteristics and relationships with the room’s boundaries.

5. Therefore you can optimize room acoustics for a particular source, with it’s unique radiation, spectral and scale parameters, to a particular room geometry, and to a particular spatial layout between the speakers and the room’s boundaries boundaries. It is this very unique arrangement that can be optimized and every deviation, whether is volume level or music type will be a perturbation away from optimal.

Based on the above, you cannot optimize a room’s acoustics in and of itself, any optimization must be done from a system’s perspective, factoring in the source and ambient characteristics & spatial relationships, and subject to derating from optimal by a number of factors including the temperature and humidity in the room. There are so many factors involved that when you speak of optimizing room acoustics and psychoacoustics, I just chuckle because you have no idea all that is involved and how source dependent the room’s acoustical response is. Room acoustics are a function of the excitation source.

I could go on but hopefully that gives you an indication of what’s involved and how improbable and impossible universal room acoustics optimization are.