my 02cents. it's all about the music. what you believe is right i.e. sounds what you think is correct, is the final answer. all who posted above are correct as to their opinion, in the end, how does it sound to you??
For me, I am a bass man. however, I hate too much bass, and I don't what to hear music that sounds thin. Thats why i run 2 x subs but not the large ones as they over pressurize the room again, what do you hear??? that is the answer. |
@sounds_real_audio wrote:
Reassuring, isn’t it? Well, arguably one can’t need what one has yet to experience firsthand. It’s how I got into this sub venture of mine, having an experience with a sub augmented main speaker setup that was something else than other setups with subs I’d heard, and one that actually had me convinced of the merits of using subs. It turned out to be an inspiration that had me build upon it in a direction that eventually suited my particular needs, and yet the basic parameters of high efficiency, large size and air displacement were untouched. That, in addition to a high quality DSP, amplification and overall integration is paramount, because you want a sub-assisted main speaker setup to be both more compared to a stand-alone solution as well as being a seamless sounding presentation at large. To be in a position where this outcome can be achieved I find it necessary, from above mentioned outset, to high-pass the main speakers just as you would low-pass your subs to properly "meet" them, preferably via the same high quality DSP with intricate filter settings incl. delay, slope type and steepness, gain, filter notches etc. in an outboard all-active configuration, and preferably via an outboard power amp that shares the same topology, overall quality and brand as that or the ones used over your main speakers. In other words: treat it like you would a single, coherent, physically uninhibited and discrete loudspeaker system per channel. Most subs as bundled solutions are asked to do from a physically stunted outset what ideally needs a much larger and more efficient package to maintain energy linearity down low. So, It isn’t only about handling room modes, acoustically and/or digitally via Digital Room Correction, but as well (and not least) accommodating blunt physics and size/displacement requirements. This, i.e.: the physical requirements, is the less popular aspect in audiophilia, even less so than using DRC, and it also goes to show why the sealed sub design (which is also the least efficient) is the most widespread solution; not because of the more or less blindly claimed improvement in impulse response, but simply because sealed subs are smaller, and because their (U)LF extension can be modified from a given enclosure volume - insofar the driver and amp permits. Using a DBA sub setup with multiple bass sources from smaller sealed subs can partially alleviate the physical inhibition, and for many the summed capacity here may be all that is required. From my chair though - again, once you’ve experienced the difference it can do - there’s no way around properly intergrated, large and efficient subs. Moreover, to my ears an asymmetrically placed and mono’ed DBA sub setup sounds like "headphone bass." Impressive it may be in some respects, and the evenness of the freqeuncy response it can produce is also a positive takeaway, but natural sounding bass it isn’t - or at least I haven’t heard it yet. I’d go to great lengths to ensure a symmetrically to the mains placed dual sub setup from above "recipe" is properly integrated. |
"I guess if I get a sub or two my quest for a very good sound system will be over...thank god." @sounds_real_audio HaHaHa... I hope your right and not just wandering in another tunnel in your Rabbit Hole. BTW, I haven't gotten motivated enough to approach the sub placement or settings with an acoustic analyzer as I am very satisfied with just putting the subs where I want them in general and tweaking the crossover and input levels to MY TASTE. I think you should consider adding the subs, enjoy the improvement and recognize that doing the acoustic analysis and attempts at room correction as a separate tunnel for another day. |
This whole debate is just like a runaway train. l have never had a problem integrating a sub into my various set ups with multiple changes of amps and floor/stand mount speakers. Maybe by just good luck, or the hand of fate in buying the right models that by mere chance worked for me. The first was a near bottom of the range Rel Quake in 2004 with a meagre 100watt power handling. The step up in quality and soundstage led to a second buy to make a stereo pair in 2006. They certainly punched anbove their weight. Onward to a Rel T7 200watt after one of the Quakes transformers failed after 15 years. Surprisingly the experiment with the second hand larger sub paid off and it blended in effortlessly. Today l run two Rel T9i’s in the same sized room and l’m as happy as a lark. I know it’s all been Rel on this journey, but if all this was a pure chance success thing to go by…. Buy a Rel or two and always wire through Hi Level Input for two channel. I never went down the room treatments path as l was content with just correct placement. It’s been the right choice for me, and l’m never thinking of, do l need to upgrade again all the time. One thing l have learnt with well integrated subs is how much lower volume l need to listen to music. Lots of people will say subs mean higher sound levels and annoying neighbours. Not true. Without subs many with inefficient speakers play music too loud to reproduce the base they are missing. |
@sounds_real_audio Standing waves can cause bass notes to be cancelled in your room. No amount of DSP or room treatment can fix it since the amplifier power is being cancelled by the standing wave. But if you have a sub and especially if you have more than one, you can break up standing waves. Since bass in most rooms is entirely reverberant, you can use a mono signal for the sub if its below about 80Hz or so. This is because the 80Hz waveform is 14 feet long and by the time your ears have figured out its there, its bounced all over the room. Many recordings these days have bass well below 40Hz. You can spend a lot of money on speakers that are flat to 20Hz (like mine) and still not have proper bass at the listening position due to standing waves. Its a problem I had to deal with. The ear has a sort of tone control built in. If bass is lacking, even though the rest of the frequencies are flat, the system will sound tilted towards the highs. If there is too much bass the highs can sound muffled. So if you get the bottom end right, an immediately audible effect is the system will sound more relaxed and realistic. That is why subs are so important. |
