Subwoofer speed is in the room, not the box


First, if you like swarm, that’s fine, please start a thread somewhere else about how much you like swarm.

I want to talk about the impression that subs are fast or slow compared to planar or line sources.

The concern, and it’s correct, is that adding a subwoofer to say a Martin Logan or Magneplanar speaker will ruin the sound balance. That concern is absolutely a valid one and can happen with almost any speaker, not just speakers with tight dispersion control.

What usually happens is that the room, sub and main speakers aren’t integrating very well. Unfortunately for most audiophiles, it’s very hard to figure out exactly what is wrong without measurements or EQ capabilities in the subwoofer to help you.

So, there’s the myth of a small sub being "faster." It isn’t. It’s slower has worst distortion and lower output than a larger sub but what it does is it doesn’t go down deep enough to wake the dragons.

The biggest problems I’ve heard/seen have been excessively large peaks in the subwoofer range. Sometimes those peaks put out 20x more power into a room than the rest of the subwoofer. Think about that!! Your 1000 W sub is putting out 20,000 watts worth of power in some very narrow bands. Of course that will sound bad and muddied. The combination of sub and main speaker can also excessively accentuate the area where they meet, not to mention nulls.

A lot is made about nulls in the bass but honestly IMHO, those are the least of our worries. Of course too many of them can make the bass drop out, but in practicality is is the irregular bass response and the massive peaks that most prevent any good sub from functioning well in a room.

Bass traps are of course very useful tools to help tame peaks and nulls. They can enable EQ in ways you can’t do without it. If your main speakers are ported, plug them. Us the AM Acoustics room mode simulator to help you place your speakers and listening location.

Lastly, using a subwoofer to only fill in 20 Hz range is nonsense. Go big or go home. Use a sub at least at 60 Hz or higher. Use a single cap to create a high pass filter. Use EQ on the subwoofer at least. Get bass traps. Measure, for heaven’s sake measure and stop imagining you know a thing about your speaker or subwoofer’s response in the room because you don’t. Once that speaker arrives in the room it’s a completely different animal than it was in the showroom or in the spec sheet.

Lastly, if your room is excessively reflective, you don’t need a sub, you need more absorption. By lowering the mid-hi energy levels in a room the bass will appear like an old Spanish galleon at low tide.

erik_squires

@erik_squires  I’m not sure how much of that matters, but I can say, conclusively, that the high pass filters absolutely make the main speakers sound better.

You're right. It does on some speakers. However, let's look at a 3 way speaker. The high pass filter will only affect the woofer. The tweeter and midrange are already 'high passed' through the internal crossover. So the woofer, that is perfectly capable of producing excellent mid/lower bass, gets restricted by a high pass.

Now you'll need to push the subwoofer to a higher crossover to compensate for the loss of bass. The subwoofer is not as good at producing upper bass as the high quality woofer you restricted using high pass.

Another way to accomplish this sound improvement is by using a lower shelf filter cutoff around 35hz. Eliminating the lower frequencies that you don't need will improve the sound of BOTH your main speakers AND your subwoofer. This way you'll retain the full sound of your main speakers. It's a win/win.

My ears much prefer the richer/fuller unrestricted mid bass sound without the high pass.

@gdaddy1 I’ve had my subs tuned to produce from 16Hz to 80 Hz. It was glorious with music. There was no reason to limit the output, BUT...

the frequency response was absolutely smooth without peaks and tilted downwards. About 1.25 to 1.5 dB/octave.

Overall, I know your approach is a popular one, but I disagree with it based on experience, and talking to audiophiles who have actually made the changes.  The approach you are taking is have the sub do the least possible.  I say, have it do the most, up to 80 Hz possible, and have the mains do the least.   It's OK that we disagree, but I wanted to acknowledge your position so I could talk to it.  Thank you.

 

Much of the benefit of a high pass before the mains amp is the loafing it enjoys…..

The problem w servo is input signal is compared w voice coil movement, NOT cone movements which are rarely pistonic….. But y’all like those big paper woofers flapping in and out of phase….. 

Vandy powered bass: high pass the mains before amp, high level connectors to sub amp to provide identical transfer function, VERY linear pistonic drivers ( The sub 3 use 3x8”, the 7’s use a Titanium honeycomb core push pull dual voice coil driver ), 11 bands of ANALOG EQ below 120 hz to address room issues, and the 11 bands are NOT 1/3 octave for a reason…. An excellent “ learning engineer “,,,, would ponder on that seemingly unorthodox approach……

I want to highlight something I fear may be missed. I wrote this at the top of my original post:

 

I want to talk about the impression that subs are fast or slow compared to planar or line sources.

So this thread is about all the things that go wrong when adding a sub and how most audiophiles attribute this to the mass of the cone. That a 15" sub has too much inertia to be accurate, and is therefore slow. This thread is very much focused on what is perceived, which is poor bass, and how different that is from the actual root cause.

That is, I wanted to center listener perceptions instead of the physics, which are clear that big subwoofer drivers are the way to go, if only you didn't have a room you had to put them in.

There are some things that go wrong if you don’t high pass your mains too. Distortion and dynamic range are usually off, not to mention many times we EQ the sub but not the mains.

All drivers suffer from higher distortion at the lowest octaves they reproduce. Subwoofers do as well but at 2 octaves lower. So by leaving in the mains you are leaving that distortion in place. Next is dynamic range. Again, higher dynamic range, lower frequency and subs are absolutely going to win. You’ll end up with your mains producing significant distortion (harmonic and compression) levels you could have avoided by using a high pass filter.

I’m not sure that I know exactly which of these issues is why high passed main speakers sound so much better to me, but I suspect the answer is in one of these issues.