Some observations from a former skeptic - and a question


I had been firmly in the camp that power cables made little difference.  A few years ago, I purchased an AQ Niagara 5000 (very nice improvement by itself BTW) and had auditioned various power cables with it.  Nothing too fancy but I found differences difficult to perceive so I just used AQ Monsoon cables. However, I continued to read how others felt power cables had the most impact which I found curious. 

I recently decided to move the Niagara to a system in another home and was planning on getting another Niagara 5000. My local dealer (who carries both AQ and Nordost) suggested I try the Nordost QB 8 MK III which he claimed to be a notable improvement over the MK II variant.

I compared the Nordost and Niagara in home and found them different but not dramatically so. The Nordost I thought a bit more dynamic, the Niagara a bit “blacker” in background.

The same dealer was surprised and suggested we do an In-store demo of power cables going into the QB 8 (great move by the local dealer!).

And there it was. The benefit was clearly there in improved spatial cues - the better cables were more “open”. I tried the same thing in my system - and same result. Unfortunately, power cables do matter. I will note that the AQ Niagara - as much as I liked it (and it was the first conditioner that I heard that made a big difference) - was somewhat negating the impact of the higher end power cables (a nice benefit in hindsight). 

Power cables don’t make as much a difference as interconnects or high quality digital cables (to my ears, in my system) but the benefits are there depending on your budget and appetite for going down the proverbial rabbit hole. 

As an aside, despite Nordost’s claim otherwise, the dealer and I both found the cable from the wall to the QB8 the least impactful and the cable(s) from the QB8 to the amp and source most impactful.

My system now is mostly Valhalla 2s (interconnects and A/C from QB 8 to components. I never expected to get here given my previous experiences.

I need one more A/C cable to complete my loom - for my processor (part of my digital stack). I auditioned a Tyr 2 and it made a notable difference. Unfortunately.

My total expenditure in cables is now equal to the cost of the rest of my system which seems crazy on the surface, but the results have been really rewarding - and more audible than most component upgrades. 

Which leads me to a question: 

How does this group think an Odin 1 (several available on this website) would match with my Valhalla 2 loom? I’m gathering many users feel that Valhalla 2s are > Odin 1s.

I could just stick w/ Tyr 2 on that unit though the cost differentials are not that great between new Tyr 2 and used Odin 1, but Valhalla 2s are up there.  

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

mgrif104

I used 12/2 but many here seem to recommend 10/2 that’s probably not much more expensive and I’d think could only be as good or better but is a bit harder to run due to stiffness (I had two 20-amp lines installed BTW). I used a Porter Port, but if I was doing it again I’d probably get this Maestro outlet as it’s reasonably priced, and Enjoy the Music did a head-to-head comparing it to pricier competition from Oyaide, Furutech, etc. and it held its own.

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets.htm

Here’s another one from 6 Moons FYI…

https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sablon2/3.html

Here’s the link where you can purchase if interested…

https://www.cruzefirstaudio.com/maestro

Just one option to ponder FWIW.

Last, went back and found some helpful tips I got here when I installed my dedicated lines so thought I’d share in case it might help — my electrician had no clue how to properly install a dedicated line for audio so it definitely helped in my case…

- If possible run separate lines for digital and analog components

- Don’t use 14/2 and go with at least 12/2 Romex

- All lines should be installed on the same leg and not share a neutral bus

Hope some of this helps, and best of luck.

I'm still a skeptic. As a professional consumer researcher, I know the only valid way to do these comparisons is through a blind listening test. I looked online and was only able to find one blind study on power cords for audio. It wasn't perfectly done, but it was pretty good. Sorry, I don't have time to go online and find it again. But I remember the conclusions clearly. 

The data revealed two things. First, power cables do not impact sound quality in any reliable way, even when listened to by serious audiophiles. Second, people listening are convinced that they hear differences. How can both these things be true? 

Here's an example. You have people listen to the same system playing the same song with two different power cables, and you repeat this several times. The first time they listen, they tell you that A sounds clearly better than B. But the next time they listen you flip a coin and either make A from round 1 A again in round 2, or you make A from round 1 B in round 2.  Then they listen again, same system, same song. This time they swear that one power cord sounds better than the other, but it's not the same cord they thought sounded better 5 minutes before. You can repeat this many times and determine that their preferences are, in fact, totally random. 

Neuroscience research shows that the brain plays a much more active role in constructing our sensory experiences than we normally think it does. In a famous series of experiments, it was shown that when people are told a bottle of wine is more expensive, it actually tastes better to them. It's not that they lie to try and look sophisticated. But brain scans reveal that they actually get a more enjoyable experience when they think the wine costs more. 

One other interesting outcome of the blind listening experiment on power cables. Even though the results showed that people's preferences were random, most people were convinced that they had heard an important difference. The placebo effect is very powerful. You probably do hear a difference. But it's not because of the power cables; it's because your brain is constructing that experience for you.

For fun, do try this at home. Get a bunch of friends together and do some blind random comparisons between your new power cable and your old one. Resist the temptation to cheat. Be sure you really don't have a clue which cable you are listening to.

Here is how to do it right. Lable one cable 'heads" and the other "tails". Have someone privately flip a coin and then, when only they can see, plug in the corresponding cord. Listen. Then have someone flip the coin again so only they can see. If it's heads twice in a row, that's fine, use the same cable twice in a row. After the second listening, have all the listeners privately write down if they liked the cable in the second listening the same amount, more, or less, than the cable in the first listening. Do this 10 times. Each time people compare the cable they just heard to the previous cable. be sure to obey the results of the coin toss. It's ok if at the end you have 7 heads and only 3 tails, or if you have 4 tails in a row, or whatever. Just obey the count toss. At the end, see if people dependably liked one more than the other. And just as importantly, when the same power cord was used twice in a row, could people tell that it was the same, or did they say the like one better than the other. If you do this, let us know the results. 

If you're interested in this sort of thing, you might enjoy this book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031649822X/ref=x_gr_w_bb_glide_sin?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_w_bb_glide_sin-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=031649822X&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

If the link does work, search on Amazon for The Things We Love: How Our Passions Connect Us and Make Us Who We Are. It goes into the science behind why we love music, among other things. I recommend it highly, but I'm biased because I wrote it.

 

@Ahuvia, 

Who cares what you think? 

It's not all about you. What did that last post bring the table?

Nothing.

Go join ASR.

@ahuvia,

              What you say might be true in some cases, but not all. I've been playing instruments and listening to music, on my father's audiophile system, since I was very young. When I was older, I started to put my own systems together. As I made more money the systems improved. Anyway, I can easily hear differences in everything. I've gone into audio shops and heard great systems, and not so great ones that the owner said was great, unless they were exaggerating to sell me something. Blind tests are tricky though, I think that in some cases people are under pressure to make the right decisions and that might affect their judgement.

 

 

@ahuvia

I can appreciate being a skeptic and I’m fine with your position.  If you read my original post - I had done multiple demos previously - with no discernible difference. Conceptually, it didn’t make sense to me either. I did not expect positive results so I came in to this with no confirmation bias.

That said - the differences in an a/b comparison were pretty easy to hear. No, it wasn’t a blind test but I will politely suggest that you would have heard a difference - it wasn’t difficult to perceive.

I would also submit that one problem with a blind test is that you’re required to identify which is which correctly. The test can be failed while still perceiving  differences.  Of course, different is not always better. But let’s start with the exploration of whether or not there are differences. 

As a fellow skeptic, I think you would appreciate how many pieces of gear (some were considered state of the art and in an exalted price category) I have auditioned and passed on because there might have been a difference but I wasn’t sure - or it didn’t merit the spend.

I’m at peace with these purchases.

Best,