What Does It Take To Surpass A SME V?


Thinking about the possibility of searching for a new tonearm. The table is a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse. Cartridge currently in use is a Transfiguration Audio Proteus, and it also looks like I will also have an Ortofon Verismo if a diamond replacement occurs without incident. 

The V is an early generation one but in good condition with no issues. Some folks never thought highly of the arm, others thought it quite capable. So it's a bit decisive. 

The replacement has to be 9 to 10.5 inches. I have wondered if Origin Live is worth exploring? Perhaps a generation old Triplanar from the pre owned market?

 Any thoughts on what are viable choices? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

neonknight

Belt Drives in General have Two Bearings.

One utilised to Mount and Rotate the Platter, and one to supply a Lateral Force for a Coupling (Belt ) to rotate the Platter at a required Speed.

Two Spindles in use that can't be set into their housings, that are not making a tight fit, as this will create a friction, which will be a unwanted impediment to the desired function of the Spindles.

Two Spindles with a looseness that can create their own eccentric rotation, when rotating independent from each other. 

Two Spindles that when coupled to each via a ancillary such as a (Belt), the presence of the Belt when coupled and supplying the necessary rotations. will pass to and throw the energies of the Two Spindles 'out of sync' eccentric rotations.

As a result of the two 'out of sync' eccentric rotations, Oscillation is now occurring and inconsistent tension of the Coupling (Belt) is occurring.  The inconsistent Tensioning is now producing Speed Fluctuation and the Oscillations are also passing unwanted energy into the Platter.

Energies passed into the Platter are now at risk of contaminating the signal being  detected in the modulation as the result of the styli tracking the groove, (a styli is not prejudiced, it will send a signal whether intended to be sent or not. The  recordings design is not a protection, the Styli will send a signal born from a contamination from a unwanted source, where energies that are becoming a contamination are failing to be transferred away from the styli whilst in operation).

A method used as a control measure is to produce a Substantial Platter of High Mass, a 12Kg+ Platter might be considered a lightweight for some designs.

Put a 9Kg Platter onto a Inverted Bearing with a questionable Anchoring at the Base to the Structure and a Spinning Plate Design is in the making, excessive eccentric rotation of the Platter is only a period of short usage away, the impact of this on the Oscillation of the Belt and Speed Stability is one to run to cover from, but some are loyal to their product and bear with it, maybe investing in extremely expensive Speed Correction devices.

The wear that has been seen within the Bearing Housing of such a design is the worst samples when witnessed, bushes are almost ellipse shaped when the Inner Shape is observed, Heavy Platters on questionable Bearing Assemblies are not to be the best selected.

Some try to avoid issues with the inconsistent dimensions of the Belt causing Wow and Flutter, by adopting a Gossamer Thin type coupling material.         

Add to the above the inconsistencies to be found in the Belt Dimensions and the Cogging of the Motor (Torque Variations), the Wow and Flutter is very much a concern and very sophisticated Speed Control Measures are becoming the next stage of investigation, some of which are more expensive that a very speed accurate of the Shelve TT and in some cases with a Tonearm and Cart' to boot as well.  

Another method used as a measure to Control the Transfer of Energies that are a contamination and unwanted to be received by the Styli is to use a Two Part Support Structure.

A Design that adopts the Sub Chassis to reduce the need to manage external energies and Motor Transferred Energies. Where there are permutations as part of the design to mount the Motor, Platter Bearing and Tonearm on different Surfaces belonging to the structure, as a Measure to reduce the impact of Contamination born from the TT's usage and set up environment, especially where there is a desire to remove energy that is unwanted being transferred to the Platter/Styli.

There are also seen measures where the Motor is a Standalone Motor Pod, with the intention of isolating the energy produced from the motors operation, being transferred through the Support Structure the other Critical Parts to be mounted.

There has been a recent reveal within this thread, that there is a real concern for convection occurring, and this is a issue to be concerned about when a Standalone Pod is utilised. A convection occurring can certainly impact on the Wow and Flutter, especially if convection is to impact on the Motors positioning to the TT.

The Inconsistency of the Belt Tensioning will be the cause of Speed Fluctuations occurring as the result. Another issue some might find is best themselves if avoided.   

A Suspended Structure is another Measure adopted as a design to manage Transferral of energies and a unwanted contamination impacting on the Styli. 

In some cases a Sub Chassis is suspended from a Plinth. In such a case the Platter Spindle may be found attached to the Sub Chassis, in some cases the Tonearm is attached to the Sub Chassis as well.

Where the Platter Spindle and Tonearm are attached to the suspended Sub Chassis, there are designs using this method that have the Motor attached to the Plinth as a means to isolate energies created from the motor and reduce energy Transferral.

The Motor when mounted on the Plinth, is to supply a lateral force to a Platter that is attached to a Floating Structure. The energies produced from this lateral force is not only impacted on by the eccentric rotation of the Two Spindles and the Inconsistences of the Belt Dimension, the eccentric rotation of the two spindles and oscillation that is developing has the energy contained to create a movement of the suspended chassis.

The result being a increase to the Wow and Flutter as the Coupling (Belt) is now operating in a environment that has even more ambient impacts on the Belt, where much increased risk of Belt Slippage is able to occur.

Add to this a Sub Chassis that is able to produce a momentum when being influenced by a lateral load, when using a Platter of substantial weight, the Pendulum can get a momentum that will have the best capacity of most systems to increase Belt Oscillation that has an unprecedented impaction on the overall replay, each individual set up environment and support structure will yield very different end results.

There are quite a few items to be considered when considering the Belt Drive TT, from the most basic design to the designs that have gone to extreme lengths to engineer out a unwanted effect only to create New effect needing to be overcome.

Idler Drives and Direct Drives have lesser concerns overall, and they have developed their own fanbase for these reasons.

The Belt Drives have there following of hypochondriac worriers or those that are oblivious to the shortcomings of the design, and revel in its usage when nowhere near optimised.

All said an done I will one day have a decent session in front of a Kuzma Design, as I am liking their take on a TT, especially the Bearing Structure.

The report is that Hideaki Nishikawa is a fan too, good enough for him, certainly good enough for my limited knowledge on TT matters.  

If I wanted a BD TT and if I didn’t want to pay the big bucks for the Helix, I’d opt for a Kuzma too.

Just a little real life experience. For many years (1970s and 80s) I had a SME 3012 on a Thorens player. Then, I changed to a VPI HW-19, and the Souther / Clearaudio Triquartz parallell arm. Despite a huge amount of tweaking, this combination never worked out for me. An audio friend commented, its like a skate slipping this way and that in the track. So, I changed to a SME V in 2004, and have been quite happy ever since. It performed better than the Triquartz on the VPI, and even better on the Hanss T30 (from 2014) using magnetic bearing instead of springs. I mainly used Lyra carts (Clavis, Titan, Atlas). My impression is that SME V + Lyra Atlas + a stable (not spring-suspended) player = quite good. Like, "no worry" good. I have experimented with some more weight on the arm, and some oil in the damper reservoir, etc, but have basically gone back to ’default’. By the way, I am allergic to pitch problems, since I play the flute, and the Hanss T30 (six strings, two motors) is quite good (= not a big problem), while the VPI HW-19 was problematic, even with all the upgrades + SDS power.

The best thing I ever did  for my system, regardless of player, arm etc, was to mount a support in the basement right beneath the stereo rack with the player in our living and listening room. Cost ca nothing. Before, when I jumped in front of my player, the cart would skip. After, almost never.

 

@o holter

 

I remember looking at the Amari turntables at one time, I believe they are the OEM builder for Hanss. I thought about their multi level tables, but did not pull the trigger. Instead on Audiogon I found a dealer sellign a demo Scheu Audio Das Laufwerk No 2, and I chose that as my second table. The speed regulation on the SOTA with the new motor and Phoenix Engineering controls is supposed to be superb, and to be honest I cannot hear any issues with the system Scheu uses. I have heard the VPI several times and had a Prime here for awhile, I am not fond of the VPI motors. 

 

What is the age of your V? Have you done anything to it? Do you still run OEM phono cable and the cartridge wires?