I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

@atmasphere FWIW I fault the 'objectivist' camp as much as the 'subjectivists' in this debate. Many of them don't know about all the specs that make a difference and allow their expectation bias to color their perceptions. IOW guilty of exactly the same thing as the people they fault. That is no way to make progress! Put another way if one is in possession of the facts, then one knows there is no good reason for objectivists and subjectivists to be at odds.

Ralph,  this paragraph  succinctly nails the point I've tried to explain with numerous posts on this and other threads. The high level complete and "meaningful "  type of measuring audio electronics you are describing aren't being utilized .

The current type of measurements as practiced over at ASR and similar sources just are not predictive of how a product will sound. This is patently obvious,  no correlation to subsequent sound quality at all.

  Ralph what you are referring to in terms of measurements is far removed from what we are presently being provided from these sites and their advocates. I would sincerely welcome legitimate and predictive measurements.  Until this happens I'll just listen. BTW Thanks for your kind comments. 

Charles 

The current type of measurements as practiced over at ASR and similar sources just are not predictive of how a product will sound. This is patently obvious,  no correlation to subsequent sound quality at all.

How can you possibly state this with such confidence without proving that you or anyone can reliably detect differences after 2 components have been tested by a sight like ASR or equivalent.

- THD+N from 100mW to max power at 20Hz, 500Hz, 1-5-10-15KHz.

- Power versus distortion single frequency from 10mW to max

- Frequency response at 4R, which would allow extraction of output resistance

- 32 tone inter modulation tests. This would represent real music.

- I saw a 2 ohm test on a recent amp from 50mW and up

ON DACs add:

- frequency response at various input sample rates and with the different filters the DAC offers.

- jitter test

- usually tests all the input types, but not consistent

I am aware of some videos highlighting some potential corner conditions (at least with DACs) that ASR does not test for, but which may also not be an issue with real music. This still brings me back to my first paragraph. With real music can you detect issues?

Ralph what you are referring to in terms of measurements is far removed from what we are presently being provided from these sites and their advocates. I would sincerely welcome legitimate and predictive measurements.

@charles1dad ASR is actually providing a lot of information, much of it quite useful. They don’t always hit the nail on the head (see the PSAudio regenerator review where Amirim pretty well missed the point). But they do graph distortion vs frequency and usually show the distortion spectra. I’d like to see the distortion spectra a -6dB of full power in addition to 1 Watt, and also see the distortion vs frequency at 1 Watt, -6db of full power and also full power. They could do all that if they caused their hands to move. So my opinion of them is higher than yours; and I think they can do better with little effort.

If you see distortion rising with frequency take that as a Bad Thing (likely bright and harsh, not what you like if my guess is right 😉). Your SETs don’t do that, neither do our OTLs or any zero feedback amplifier. Amps that run feedback need to not do that too. So right there you know something very useful that is routine on that site.

To me ASR does pretty good with DAC measurements and Speakers, especially since he got the Klippel. 

@djones51 

ABX and blind tests are the platinum standard. Sighted tests are dismissed as irrelevant, no way to have a control for bias. I fail to understand this idiotic aversion to science.  

This aversion to science seems to be endemic amongst throughout history.

Let's not forget that Galileo, Darwin and Freud have all been vilified for daring to even suggest that mankind is perhaps not the God created centre of the known universe.

As you might expect, most of the anger came from those that had a vested interest in denying the evidence that was presented, namely certain powers in the church.

With audio, you could argue that the reasons for denying science are somewhat less principled.

Here, amongst certain unscrupulous corners of the industry, it's not a question of a possible theological or even philosophical belief, but merely an attempt of sheer greed by deception.

As we already know, not even scientists and engineers can live in a world free of outside political and economic influence and temptation. Some can be easily bought and sold all too easily in this age of pragmatism.

Now as to the reasons why some consumers would reject scientific data, perhaps it's just a question of pigheadedness?