Is Rap a valid musical form?


This has been way more than the progression away from tubes to SS!

Believe the world of Hip Hop has been around and evolving for around 5 decades.

And for most of that time I have dismissed and avoided that world and its “music”.

So angry, offensive and abrasive. Just a bunch of rhythmic yelling.

I believe my former thread was titled “Why Rap?”.  Through that discussion and somewhat of an understanding that this must be a new art form that engages and entertains millions if not billions. That and a long standing belief that if a type of music or a particular artist attracts many, many fans there must be substance and quality there. Even if I personally don’t particularly like it there must be something there.

Rap and the Hip Hop world was always so foreign and culturally untouchable.

Then my Rap thread and several others at that time got me rethinking my perspective and I watched a video of a group of student performance musicians at Juilliard all exclaiming their fascination with a Rap artist named Kendrick Lemar and his “masterpiece” “To Pimp a Butterfly”. I bought the double LP. Trying to listen to it turned out to be difficult because of my old view of Rap and that of the world of Hip Hop. But it was also becoming clear that this was truly something of significant interest. However, I just listened to the two discs only once-with some difficulty.

Today, after several weeks, I hesitatingly pulled the album out again. And to my surprise and actually delight hearing it with fresh ears it grabbed me and would not let go. I immediately heard the brilliance of a multi faceted, and to me, all new experience in sound. Not unlike great 20th century or progressive Jazz it evolved from section to section with a plethora of fascinating, yes musical, experiences. Tonal, atonal, percussive, rhythmic, breathing combined with incredible, energetic tongue twisting strings of mostly unintelligible words. And not merely angry yelling.

Sure, a ton of F bombs but words that don’t flow over you like lovely other genres but invade the psyche and don’t let go. Not particularly pleasant but gripping and interesting in its complexity. Words delivered with such power and drive which acted as a rhythmic counterpoint. It was impossible to turn away or turn off. 
And speaking of turned off, the experience was the opposite of that. Stories of life undeniable human. Yes, driven by bitterness, anger and raw emotion. Impossible to  dismiss it as not deeply felt.

I do think “To Pimp a Butterfly” is unique. But I also believe that there must be much more in this Hip Hop world that has deep musical interest. Some time ago I heard Drake on SNL perform a song that was amazing though not really Rap. Rather an advanced and unconventional musical form. I hear similar musical threads throughout “Pimp”. I did get a CD of Drake. “Scorpion”. I also could not absorb it in my first listen. I look forward to the next, fresh listen. I did try to hear several YouTubes of some very successful Rap artists. They mostly lacked the interesting musical themes threaded through. “Pure Rap” with just the rhythmic words-not my cup of tea. But a musically valid form none the less.

 

 

mglik

Listening to Kendrick’s “M.A.A.D City”. There are comparisons to “To Pimp a Butterfly” but it pales in comparison. So far, it just moves from one musical line to another more like other Rap. However, it does add some spoken dramatic sections.

”Butterfly” evolves the musical lines and sound effects not unlike a form of 20th century Classical. Elements of a composer like John Cage. Don’t misunderstand, Kendrick is firmly Rap but even “M.A.A.D” is even uniquely Kendrick. I enjoy the way he delivers his rap lines in an interesting rhythmic way.

But M.A.A.D., I believe, is the album which set the Billboard record of 400 weeks on the charts. Hearing it now, my opinion is that the less complex composition must be more appealing to the masses. Whereas I was held and interested in “Pimp”, not so much with “M.A.A.D”. 

@holmz - More than just ’she’ - as the saying goes, ’Blondie is a group’!

Wow, I only saw one person all this time. 😁

I guess the “They” and “them” in this case is noun-verb coherence or agreement, and not political.

@mglik 

As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. If you check it out keep an open mind and judge it in its entirety. I think you will find it interesting if not gripping. In my superficial and introductory dive into Rap, it is firmly in the genre yet unique.

So, over the weekend, I had a chance to listen to most of it. 

jssmith207 did a pretty good run down. 

The sax player, Kamasi Washington, and the bass player, Thundercat, are good players, and I have recordings (non rap) with them, which are quite good.

And while I can say, this album might be creatively a step up from most rap I have heard, it still has all the drawbacks of the genre I have a problem with. Simplistic song structure, unsophisticated harmonies, mediocre musicianship (even though Kamasi and Thundercat play on this album, they don't do anything their skills require), repetitive, etc. Sure, there is some real creativity here, just not in the realm of composition and musicianship. 

Sorry if this sounds insulting, but rap, even this recording, is about as musically simple as music can get. Even, with the various layering, sound effects, and overdubs, etc. 

Seriously, there are genres and subgenres of music, with ridiculously complex time signatures, complex chord progressions (and more than 3 or 4 chords per song), with very little or no repetition, with musicians that have otherworldly levels of musicianship, and they are still able to convey deep and broad levels of emotional and/or intellectual content, even with no lyrics at all. 

 

@holmz - No seriously, in the earlier days, the band got so tired of everybody equating 'Blondie' with Debbie that they made up buttons saying 'Blondie Is A Group'.... 

@simonmoon - good that you checked it out! But does quality, enjoyable music have to be 'musically complex' or 'sophisticated'? 

Personally, that's not what I listen to music for. I've heard way too many 'virtuosos' who do not interest me even a little but cure insomnia for me very reliably! 😁

It's hard for me to care how well or with what sophistication they play their instruments if I don't like the music they play on them. Some music I love is like that; much of it is not. Nothing against it or any other genre; I don't require music to be to my particular taste to consider it good or valid.