SET the best?

larryi2,703 posts 11-29-2021 12:01pm Speaking in very broad, generalized, terms, I tend to find pushpull amps to have a "tighter" more punchy sound than SET amps. But, too much of that quality and the sound seems a bit artificial or "mechanical" and less natural than the more relaxed sound of good SET amps. For me, for example, KT88 pushpull amps tend to be particularly likely to sound too punchy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes the Defy’s 12 KT88 tubes in certain recordings that offer a punding bass line is wayyy too much low hz’s for my 10x15 room. Grates my nerves,e ven at low vol. Mundorf supreme caps both in the W18Excdel and Defy7’s coupling caps, Now with dual FR and eliminated 1 W18, runninga single with a 20 uf Mundorf Supreme,, I know the bass will be explosive when I retube the Defy in Janurary. At 100watts, per channel, its not a good match for higher sens FR. But it will have to work, as thats my current amplifier. Luckily I listen only to CM, so might keep the W18 in, as most CM is recorded with mics distant from kettle drums and cello sections. But for hard driving music, + big PP amp, extra large room is a must to endure the pounding low range. I just uploaded a new video with the single W18 Dual FR and tweeter. results were good. Details open up, but lose some of that laid back linear magic, but gain in dynamics. I prefer duals vs a single FR. SETs are more laid back, the music flows witha natural grace and charm. While PP amps, as Larry correctly points out has this **driving* energy, again which some may prefer. Bottom line as I hear the 2 amps, with PP just about any speaker will work. Although both my techs mentioned over and over ,,,and over,, **You realize you have the wrong speaker for the Defy,,don’t You??...** I politely disagreed.

The Seas Thors with the Defy was a stunning experience,,

that is you like xovers and low efficiency,,and lastly have no issues with a middwoofer carrying mids up to the 2k+ hz region and a dome tweeter going as low to pick up where the midwoofer left off. I’ve not heard the king of all SETs a 845 big power tube. Thats a ways off, and have big expectations. Givena choice of Jadis new KT170 or a 845, no contest, 845 will dedliver a sound field full of nuances that will leave Jadis KT170 behind in the dust. I think the era of big PP power amps is slowly riding off into the sunset. SET’s star is arising in the eastern horizon.

China manufacturers are making SET’s at a more reasonable price with stunning designs. Once you hear a SET, PP amplification has lost some of its sheen. .

@david_ten

Thanks David! ;

There was a user named plino who was asking the question about the effects of the rolloff further from region where it starts to roll off noticeably.

I guess I missed the @@@ :)

I did say above 

**PP amps are not so much needed with a  SET around, now more readily avaliable..**

WEll I am still in experimenting stage.

I am learning alot about what a  SET does and  not doing so well.

Depends on the recording, music.

Its a complex issue.

When I get new KT88's in the Defy, I can make further comments, 

In classical chamber/light jazz/blues, a  SET  takes precedence , pure linearity, astonishing rendering of the midrange.

With more complex music, like say Santana McLaughlin Love Devotion Surrender,  Although SETs offer... every detail in midrange, the bass and highs are indeed rolled off a  bit

So here's some  early conclusions.

CM being mainly midrange, roll off in highs and lows (as engineers miced  far away from kettle drums, cello sections, which is how a  orch SHOULD be mic-ed)

SETs excel in linera/liquid midrange

Full Range Speakers are not really **full range** But the DIYers wish   the FR tag remain on the speaker. A Full Range is really a  FULL Midrange with some bass, some highs

So the Equation goes

CM + SET + FR = perfect combination. 

That is to say if you love CM in all its variations, there is no better amplifier than a  SET and for speakers, nothing will outperform a  **Full* Range speaker.

In driving jazz/blues, seems to me PP amplification is the power for the superior soundstage.

And  in more complex music, a  midwoofer with cutoff somewhere at 500-1khz is  a  must have. Any tweeter is also a  must have, both in light jazz/chamber and complex driving music. Adds sheen.

So to anser the OP 

*Are SETs  the best?*

DEpends on what music is on the turn table and what the audiophile expects. 

I had to bring up speakers in the topic, as a  SET amp w/o the right speaker,,and what do  we have?

In comes horns and or FR.

PP amps  are not as limited in speaker selection. 

But I would strongly recommend FR + Assist for all tube amplification. 

My guess is the Defy will render the Love Devotion Surrender cd with more dynamics, bass/high extenstions. 

So I was indeed wrong in my above opinion, a  SET is not **end all/be all**

There is still a   place   for a  PP amplifier. in certain recordings. 

That said, I wonder if  hooked up dual  8 inch manesium midwoofers,  and had  the 845 amplification , now its more than likely my opinion is indeed correct.

WE do not need a  PP amplifier.

The main issue with a  845 amplifier is the weight and price tag. 

Takes resources to obtain a  845 amplifier. And really , ideally best are  mono blocks. 

If I could do it all over again,  I would not have a big PP amp, it would be the 845 + FR speakers.

I went down the wrong path, 

Then again, the DavidLouis were not out back in 2008, and I would never pay $5k for a  FR driver. 

So its all finally comming together.

FR is the ideal speaker for a   845 SET,,all I need now is the mono blocks.

I believe a  845 will do everything the Defy 7 with 12 KT88's can do, but only much superior.

So ,,, back again,,, PP amps are not at all needed  when there is a  845 in the house. Thats my final opinion, 845 surpasses all PP amlification in all genres. 

The 845 has more muscle than a  300B , UX250 and many other SET designs. 

Let me try to summerize  my very long winded post above

~~SET amplificatio allows <<<more>> of the emotional expression of the music to come through~~~

<<More>> meaning are the speakers  CAPABLE of voicing this emotive expression??

SEe how amp + speakers is critical in SET amplification. 

AS my mantra goes 

Speakers are everything

EVEN MORESO critical with a  SET amplifier. 

Just trying to express things that are longgggg over due for clearing  up 

~~~The Mystery of SETs~~~

and the saga of the Magical Mystery Tour (Beatles 1967) of SET discovery continues........

Wow! More of the ever-evolving absolute conclusions based on very limited experience.  It is one thing to say that you have heard, and liked, a certain 845 amp running a particular set up, but, that does not then lead to a conclusion that "845 surpasses all PP amplification in all genres" and that PP amps are not needed.  

I have heard a number of 845 amps, and liked quite a few, but, none were clearly better than a whole bunch of SETs running other tubes.  If higher power is needed, does it have to be an 845?  How many 211, 833 and 1610 amps have you similarly auditioned?  In all of these comparisons, how many pushpull amps and tube types have you auditioned other than the Defy7?  Also, OTL amps are pushpull amps--how many of these have you also auditioned?