Antinn2, thanks for the info! Very much appreciated!
I did know that stuff about the Kirmuss machine and some of what you mentioned about the Degritter. When I use my system, I don't use any heat because the cavitation process actually causes or produces a little heat, anyway. That's one of the things that concerns me about the Degritter. When I clean my records I set-up in the cellar, which is always cooler than the house. Even after hours of cleaning, the US tank water never gets even lukewarm. My records have always been in great shape. They go in looking shiny new and come out looking the same way. The only thing I care about is sonic or audible improvement(s) and I'm getting that with the system I have now. I don't want to pay 3 grand for something I won't be able to hear, if you know what I mean.
I've been reading and researching this stuff for, at least, 3 or 4 years now. I've written to several world leading manufacturers of ultrasonic cleaning systems and machines for hospitals and clean rooms for microchip makers, asking all sorts of questions about cleaning frequencies, etc. I've actually had a couple of bona fide scientists write back and both said 40 kHz should be very safe and effective on PVC or vinyl products. Of course, as bona fide scientists, both very careful to stipulate their opinions were based on the Physics involved, potential short term and long term damage to PVC products and things of this nature; not specifically oriented to how this would or might affect audio performance. What I didn't know and found fascinating was that the size of the bubbles generated in the cavitation process isn't what does the cleaning. It's the force produced when they implode. So, 40 kHz actually produces a more aggressive cleaning effect than 120 kHz . Degritter states their machine is more gentle and, if I recall correctly, effective enough at cleaning mold release compounds from new and, presumably, older records, as well. If that is, indeed, so, from a scientific perspective, that would be an interesting bit of knowledge.
Several articles I've read stated the best approach to cleaning just about anything and everything a record might pick up along the years (e.g. smoke; fingerprints; skin oil; etc.) is to use a variety of sweeping frequencies during the cleaning process (e.g. 40 kHz - 80 kHz - 120 kHz and even a little higher). CleanerVinyl has started selling US cleaning tanks like that, now. Expensive but not 3 grand expensive.
A few other articles I've read indicated it really doesn't matter where the transducers are located in the machine because the bubbles are created all over the bath and permeate the entire liquid medium, anyway.
It would be nice to find a handful of bona fide scientists who are also bona fide audiophiles and would put all of this to the test. Sort of an A/B shout-out of the various RCM on the market. The before & after electron microscope photos on he Degritter website are all very well and good but I've seen similar before & after pics on other websites with similar results. I think Last had or maybe still does have something like that on their site or maybe it was in some review I read.
Another question I would hope could be resolved is what US waves do to records or PVC on a short-term and long-term basis. One person I had an email back & forth with questioned whether overuse of any frequency, particularly lower frequencies, could potentially alter the structural integrity of the PVC canals in the tiny grooves of a record and eventually negatively effect audio performance. That kind of makes sense, to me, considering that is where the thickness of the PVC material is the thinnest. I've never used my US machine more than once on any record. Never felt I had to. I've always been of the opinion that this is a one & done type of thing. However, it would be good to know if repeated US cleanings could potentially be detrimental in any way.
Anyway, as you can, no doubt, see, I can get a little crazy about this kind of stuff! My records are and always have been my babies!
Sorry for the long post but inquiring minds what to know. And, no, I wasn't that little kid in school who always had his hand up when the teacher asked: "Any questions?" I should have been a scientist!
I did know that stuff about the Kirmuss machine and some of what you mentioned about the Degritter. When I use my system, I don't use any heat because the cavitation process actually causes or produces a little heat, anyway. That's one of the things that concerns me about the Degritter. When I clean my records I set-up in the cellar, which is always cooler than the house. Even after hours of cleaning, the US tank water never gets even lukewarm. My records have always been in great shape. They go in looking shiny new and come out looking the same way. The only thing I care about is sonic or audible improvement(s) and I'm getting that with the system I have now. I don't want to pay 3 grand for something I won't be able to hear, if you know what I mean.
I've been reading and researching this stuff for, at least, 3 or 4 years now. I've written to several world leading manufacturers of ultrasonic cleaning systems and machines for hospitals and clean rooms for microchip makers, asking all sorts of questions about cleaning frequencies, etc. I've actually had a couple of bona fide scientists write back and both said 40 kHz should be very safe and effective on PVC or vinyl products. Of course, as bona fide scientists, both very careful to stipulate their opinions were based on the Physics involved, potential short term and long term damage to PVC products and things of this nature; not specifically oriented to how this would or might affect audio performance. What I didn't know and found fascinating was that the size of the bubbles generated in the cavitation process isn't what does the cleaning. It's the force produced when they implode. So, 40 kHz actually produces a more aggressive cleaning effect than 120 kHz . Degritter states their machine is more gentle and, if I recall correctly, effective enough at cleaning mold release compounds from new and, presumably, older records, as well. If that is, indeed, so, from a scientific perspective, that would be an interesting bit of knowledge.
Several articles I've read stated the best approach to cleaning just about anything and everything a record might pick up along the years (e.g. smoke; fingerprints; skin oil; etc.) is to use a variety of sweeping frequencies during the cleaning process (e.g. 40 kHz - 80 kHz - 120 kHz and even a little higher). CleanerVinyl has started selling US cleaning tanks like that, now. Expensive but not 3 grand expensive.
A few other articles I've read indicated it really doesn't matter where the transducers are located in the machine because the bubbles are created all over the bath and permeate the entire liquid medium, anyway.
It would be nice to find a handful of bona fide scientists who are also bona fide audiophiles and would put all of this to the test. Sort of an A/B shout-out of the various RCM on the market. The before & after electron microscope photos on he Degritter website are all very well and good but I've seen similar before & after pics on other websites with similar results. I think Last had or maybe still does have something like that on their site or maybe it was in some review I read.
Another question I would hope could be resolved is what US waves do to records or PVC on a short-term and long-term basis. One person I had an email back & forth with questioned whether overuse of any frequency, particularly lower frequencies, could potentially alter the structural integrity of the PVC canals in the tiny grooves of a record and eventually negatively effect audio performance. That kind of makes sense, to me, considering that is where the thickness of the PVC material is the thinnest. I've never used my US machine more than once on any record. Never felt I had to. I've always been of the opinion that this is a one & done type of thing. However, it would be good to know if repeated US cleanings could potentially be detrimental in any way.
Anyway, as you can, no doubt, see, I can get a little crazy about this kind of stuff! My records are and always have been my babies!
Sorry for the long post but inquiring minds what to know. And, no, I wasn't that little kid in school who always had his hand up when the teacher asked: "Any questions?" I should have been a scientist!