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Holographic Soundstage ?

I would like to share my observation and hopefully get some input from people who have the same interest.

My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.

I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.

If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.

128x128viethluu
mikekollar's avatar
mikekollar
42 posts
 
You want a nice holographic soundstage? Here is what I do for my listening position...... you will never do this and any audiophile snob reading this will pan it for sure..... but if its soundstage you want, as far as I am concerned, no amount of money on just the right tube amp or Tannoy this or Helmholtz that, will give you an incredible, speaker disappearing soundstage than the following...... ready? Go on to ebay and spend the $150 to $200 on a vintage 1980's Carver C9 Sonic hologram generator and introduce THAT into your system. My 20k 2 channel system loves it and I consider this the most important piece on my rack. There, I said it, now don't do it because you will be laughed at for thinking you could achieve this without spending 5k somewhere and especially because you are using something old and used from the 1980's and how dare I suggest something that is not refined and tweaked to todays standards.....  fine........ you are missing out on what you are looking for. It is amazing but you wont spend the $150 to find out. 
8th-note
348 posts
 
There is a piece of gear that has the specific objective of giving you a more holographic soundstage. It's a processor from a company called BSG (no longer in business) and the model is a QOL (pronounced coal). It has been positively reviewed by Stereophile and TAS and the reviews are available on their websites. When new they sold for $4k which I believe is a large reason why they didn't catch on. You can occasionally find one on the used market for under a grand.

I have one in my system (Krell KSA 300S, KRC-2, Theil CS6 speakers) and I really like the effect. An audio buddy recently stayed at my house for a couple days and he was very impressed by the depth of the soundstage and the placement of voices and instruments. When bypassed, the difference is very noticeable. I use it nearly all the time. Once in a while I encounter a recording that sounds worse using the QOL but that's pretty rare.

If you can find one I highly recommend trying it. If you don't like it you should be able to resell it for nearly what you paid for it so it's a low risk proposition. I like mine so much I bought a second one in case the first one quits working.
mikekollar's avatar
mikekollar
42 posts
 
You just described my experience with the Carver C9 perfectly (except for the part about finding a rare recording where it does not sound good; havent found that yet), all the way down to owning a backup. I own 2 backups for the same reason. me main one has been re-capped refurbished by a gut in the midwest somewhere that does this.

I am very intriqued by the BSG unit and will look it up. We are definately on the same page. Defined instrumentation to the left and right of the speakers and everything in between including an untouched center stage between the speakers is heaven for me.

Is the BSG unit using a phase type processing similar to the Bob Carver unit?
ohlala
1,232 posts
 
Along with a few others' posts I really suspect your speakers are underpowered with the Raven. Loss of bass and scale is what happens with underpowered speakers. Wharfedale recommends 100-600 watts. Further, watts-sensivity-listening distance calculation is an incomplete approach in selecting speakers or amplifiers in my experience. Most recently my 94db speakers have been underpowered with 80 watts and 150 watts. Only 300 watts was able to control their large woofer. It was a big difference. This is in contrast to my older ~87db speakers for which 75 watts was just fine. 
sgreg1
612 posts
 
Might be hard for you to do during a trial. When i rolled out new tungsol tubes for 1953 sylvinia  bad boys the 3d sound jumped out. Second fix that really opened my soundstage was moving from wifi to ether net cat7 hard wire for my quobuz. Then added fiber optic cable for last leg and now i am at 4d. People say it sounds like the singer is closer to them than the drummer and the right left separation of guitar players is mind blowing. Bass is tight and upfront with kick drum. So don't give up but again it is hard to drop $150 on a tube to try it out.
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