What makes a DAC so expensive?

Mahgister I agree some are more transparent than others, sometimes the ones that measure great sound like hifi and not like real music and some that don't measure as well sound closer to real music. I do not believe the measurements we currently use are always an indication of how something is going to sound.

We think the same then for this matter....

My main point, coming from my audiophile listening experiments and experience, is what people think about the sound of their dac, often comes from a wrong mechanical,electrical and acoustical embeddings of their audio system....

Dac are the most difficult component to buy without trying it....And very good one at low cost difficult to spot....



My best to you

We each approach this, including the way we treat others in this forum, in our own way, as we do most other things. 

We can use the language, "The only thing getting between advancing the training of one's dog is the owner of the dog." Yes, that's right. "The only thing resisting the improvement of aesthetics of one's interior design is the person in charge of that interior design." You can turn that lens on anything, and yet not everything needs that lens - for instance, we probably should be very tactful in applying our lenses to the behavior of others.

The art hanging on my wall is my art, fits my desires and preferences. I buy my art based on a very long history with art and yet, I wouldn't walk into your house and say you have bad tastes, when you are on your very own path in discovering and responding to art.

I also wouldn't call you names and act as though I was somehow helping you "upgrade" your artistic sensitivities, by calling you a name. Learning just doesn't work well that way. We really have discovered that antagonizing the student, demeaning the student, calling the student names, punishing the student does not, neither in the short nor long terms, produce a better student.

• The motives are all wrong, and lack the very sensitivity that the person claims to be illuminating.
  

You wish me to apply your lens, @douglas_schroeder , and I think it would have been worth your time to take notice that I fully embraced your call for "data." I applied your lens. It's worth putting more effort into noticing the things that already meet your interests and alleged requests/standards...

So, your rendering and application of "chintziphile" rides on your own motives, which appears to be to sell me, and others, more costly equipment. Maybe it's part of a competitive approach that has often worked for you? Maybe you think I "need" your "vision" or experience of high-end components. You certainly aren't, in the preceding content, evidencing a high-end interest in discussing the finery of the available technology, even when it (possibly) shows up in lower cost equipment...

That's fine. I've heard your argument. It includes a tendency to call people names when they do not share your value system... I could push the button a lot harder on this, but if you want to roll around in it a bit, I know you are much more intelligent than you initial spitballs reveal...

Are you the kind that has decided his value system should be shared by all? I doubt it, because part of this sort of thinking depends on putting others down as though they are somehow less valuable for their own ways of seeing and processing... I would imagine, if I owned a number of $10K+ components from your list of favorites, you would offer a contrasting set of salutary phrases, very uplifting, even exalted phrases, without knowing a real thing about me, and without much caring, by the way. 

It's fine to be absorbed by high-end Mercedes Benzes and lean "taut" bodies. That's all fine. I get the attraction, the sexual and visceral basis of your thinking and what moves you. Go for it! I've driven many MB's in my life - I get what it's all about - the "image" of it all, the interpretation of "power" that such things appear to command. Not a bad ride, nice 'finish' work, ok motor, but I'm much more interested in other values when it comes to my buying power, and my ownership experience.

In here, I'm more interested in understanding the tech - that's one of my values, so when someone made the critique that this thread obviates "learning," I ask you to give me some insight into how my experience enjoying much deeper richer bass from my fire-bottle might be calculated in terms of THD+N or other factors, and how this might be an analog to desirable DAC tech, perhaps evidenced in more AND less costly examples. At some point, the claims to "better" will interact with what we know about things, what we are learning. The engineers are clearly in touch with this... what kind of background do you have, other than "reviewing" the tech? How well do you know the tech?

I don't think you really want to be lectured, who does? But I see the importance of laying bare motives.

I want to know how DACs work - what is in them and what does it do?

I am permitted to develop a thread on this very topic. 

.... I don't have any interest in endless claims about how amazing things are in the DAC world of  $5000 to $90,000 components, or that there's something wrong with me because I don't have the money to spend on a $5000 DAC.

If that's your interest, Mr. Shroeder, please move on. You claimed you don't like to argue, and yet you immediately started out within the components of argument, and quickly moved to what is commonly known as the "ad hominem" fallacy, which distracts from the claim and evidence, while moving to a focus on character. 

You then doubled-down on character, claiming that somehow you have been able to rise from that grave situation, while never addressing any of the interesting points raised in the posts you were allegedly addressing. 

You found the points agitating and at odds with your values, so you struck out, so let's have the value discussion... 

I'd like to start with valuing the people I'm talking with. I appreciate many different points of view, regarding the technology. I'm not here to assess your character, based on your buying preferences, or your methods of conducting reviews. When I read one of your articles a few months ago, it was clear to me that I was studying a mind that is strongly drawn toward things that cost and look a certain way, and that's fine. I am also interested in some of that, in some places, but I'm absolutely much more satisfied with my Toyota than I would be owning most of the MB's I could afford. I love that my seven year old car will likely go 200,000 - 300,000 miles without any serious service needs. To me, that's smart shopping, smart tech, smart living. That's part of my value system. I don't feel a need to make $200K a year, nor buy $10,000K stereo components, because I make choices that give me a hell of a lot of mileage for pennies.

This is an example of the notion that wealth is relative.

How would you feel, driving most Toyotas? Maybe you do see the intelligence of owning such a vehicle, and I would be interested in hearing the values you associate with a Toyota... 

I found your call for evidence concerning the possible sonic differences between the top 20 measured DACs, from but one reviewer, quite reasonable. 

I also called upon you, to provide some "data" for the counterclaim that might be drawn out of the thread you had teased out. 

Your response was to ignore the entire post and ignore all of its substance. Your response was to mostly ignore the call for deeper analysis and discussion. I would love to hear the result of your mind entering into a conversation with the data results of the testing done on the Modius... 

Your "past self" was a chintziphile? I think he was much better than that, probably preserved a little innocence and sense of adventure in the wide open field of audio. The joy is in the process.

In the 80's and 90's I spent day after day, and hour after hour, FOR YEARS, visiting local high-end stereo shops, where I auditioned EVERYTHING and talked to the sales team for hours. They loved it; I loved it. I bought a lower cost pair of Vandersteen (2ce) and kept them for over twenty-five years. Was that chintzy? None of those salespeople every claim the purchase of a Yamaha AVR was chintzy. My purchase of a 15" velodyne subwoofer was also never sold with the added judgment of "chintzy." 

Never in all of my face-to-face communication with people selling audio in high-fidelity stores have I encountered a person who wrote off my joyful interest in the tech as chintzy.

I think it's worth thinking about these encounters as though they are to be valued on par with face-to-face interaction. It is the screen, the anonymity, and other factors I won't describe (I might, if pressed) that are supporting the IMPULSE that it's just fine attack character when someone else is behaving in ways that run counter to one's own values. 

Can you imagine buying things at on ground stores and having sales people spit on your character because you decide to buy within your own comfort zone?

Let people be themselves, let them conduct their audio search in their own way, if they aren't hurting anyone. 

I think you would get a better understanding of how DACs work by asking that question on ASR. My understanding is rudimentary. 

I have choosen my dac on the basis of the fact that his design is minimal....Not a cell phone dac but not too far i guess with internal battery to lower the noise... (suffice to inspect the internals to see the minimalistic approach)

Every electronic component in a piece of gear will add noise, it is always a trade-off...Then a minimal dac seems to me a good idea and it was retrospectively an illuminated choice....( confirmed by no negative reviews at all anywhere.)(the fact that some better dac exist at high cost is not a counter argument for sure)

That was a good choice for me....I forgot to underline that in my other posts, and this is the basic fact that guide me in my choice : minimal design then low cost and low noise....

The engineering of dac is very complex and without engineering background very difficult to understand completely....

If someone want to understand all alternatives for dac design one hour reading will not do the job...More like one month to the introduction.... :)

For myself i never wanted to immerse myself in this particular study but only to buy the cheapest and the best at the same time to solve my audio problem....My other purchases for a dac being if not atrocious not very good to my ears....

One thing i realized very rapidly is the fact that dac design is a field of audio engineering that is booming and all these cost associated to research must be paid by the customers...And all research is not always about the minimal design with optimal quality but rather the better performance in the absolute at all cost, never mind the price...Normal these dac engineers are enthralled by their research of the top high end results....

Another thing i realized, is that some old piece of technology and cheap piece, like the chip TDA 1543 at the basis for example of my dac, was always seen to be very good and exist since the beginning of this technology.... Then a minimalistic design around one of this electronic chip seems to me a bargain in money and for the given sound quality.... I was right....Like i said no come back.... I dont want today or will not want tomorrow, invest money to beat the quality of my dac with a little margin by paying many thousand of dollars....

The last discovery i made was to be crucial for me and totally underestimated; never mind the price of the dac, the resulting S.Q. of any system is more related to the rightful mechanical,electrical, and acoustical embeddings than from the design of the dac only at any price....

And what is the reviews value of different dacs comparison in a non controlled embeddings? No great value...The first dac i bought believing these reviewers was a bad choice....


I was right for dac, price and S.Q. are not linearly related at all, especially under 2000 dollars....And the booming research make obsolete swiftly the last costly hyped dac of the year....

I decide to go with minimalistic, low price,low noise,universally praised product..... I was right....

I hope my post will be useful, many people look for not only a decent dac but a very good one, at low price like me....

My best to all....