Poor value vs snake oil...


John Darko has done a good podcast with Jeff Dorgay of TONEaudio on snake oil. This prompts my post, as I think he is onto something.

See:
https://darko.audio/2020/03/podcast-20-snake-oil/

To try and summarise where his head is, he seems to be saying that 
  • Snake oil, (the selling of something worthless as a remedy) is not about price. A $1 rip off is still a rip off. 
  • For something to be snake oil, it must be a confidence trick, e.g. the selling of sugar water as medicine. This is not about value judgements, its about fraud.
  • That selling something that makes a tiny improvement for a lot of money is not snake oil, as there is an improvement, there is an actual product doing something, it is just that it is not worth it. 

I was interested in this topic as a lot of us seem to throw about the "snake oil" insult freely. Those $10k speaker cables are snake oil to someone who only has a $2k system. I think it is worth unpicking this a bit, so we can better insult each other.

So thanks to Mr Darko's musings, here is where my head is:

Snake Oil: this only makes sense from the perspective of the seller. If they know that they are selling lies, selling sugar water as medicine, selling an empty box that does nothing, then they are perpetrating a fraud, and can be called snake oil salespeople. 

So my definition of snake oil is where the seller has no legitimate reason to claim their product brings any benefit. If they can't show that some people get benefit, or can point to measurable change, then they are knowingly selling a lie. 

Now I totally accept that there are many many products out there that are not worth their sticker price, but this is an entirely different concept to snake oil. Snake oil is about the mind of the seller, where as "worth" is in the mind of the buyer. We, the buyers are the judge of value (worth), we all have different opinions, and who is to say who is right. 

So if my neighbour spends the cost of a good car on some speaker cables, I can moan about her wasting money, but it would be incorrect to say she has bought snake oil. Her cables are demonstrably physically different from my bell wire, so she has got something for her cash. I just don't think she got enough value for her money, which is a judgement call, and hey, she just might be a heck of a lot richer than me. 

I will end with an example:

Say I sell hair conditioner which I make at home by filling nice looking bottles with water from my faucet. I sell each bottle for $100 and make up lots of quotes from satisfied customers saying how it changed their lives. Well, if I did that I would say I am a snake oil salesman.

But say that instead of filling with water, I fill my bottles with conditioner I bought down at the drug store for $2 a bottle. I sell my bottles in nice store, or at an artisanal market, and a few people tweet that it works really well, and I use their quotes in my ads...  then I think I am not a snake oil salesman, but a businessman. It would not be my problem that my customers are getting poor value. Hey, that is their problem. Maybe they really like my bottle. 
 
128x128rols
I really like Mahgister’s analogy to the athlete working out. Exactly!
In our instant-gratification society, we want to hear our money NOW! "I’m not waiting for this $600 cable to break in, it sounds like a can o’nails! Must be some kind of SO!"
Give cables and components and tweaks time to get their muscles into performance shape.
It’s also important to have our listening "muscles" ready to perform. Unfortunately, listening muscles (cilia) are incredibly fragile. So abuse can result in permanent loss. Imagine what it would be like to go to the gym and work out hard, only to find that you overdid on your left arm and it’s now partially paralyzed for life!
Dr. Ted Kaptchuk of Harvard Medical says medical placebos are 50% as effective as the real meds. Why would you or I criticize a buddy who has used tweaks we consider fake to improve his system? We all do it constantly but perhaps our sense of logic clashes with our sense of hearing to the point that we draw a mental and/or financial line in the sand: "Naw, that can’t possibly work!" "Snake-oil!" And if the tweak works well, others yell "placebo effect!" Experts cited in Kaptchuk’s article have concluded that reacting to a placebo is not proof that a certain treatment doesn’t work, but rather that another, non-pharmacological mechanism may be present.
Now that certainly opens up many possible Pandora’s boxes. Yes, hallucination may be one answer, but in view of our mostly uneducated perspective, how can we automatically dismiss putting anything into our systems? Hell, if I get improved imaging with cherries jubilee under my turntable--who’s calling me out? Isn’t one of the metrics we are talking about using to detect SO dependent on wether or not there is any positive effect?
Tweaking is fun and can be really inexpensive, we see. So let’s lighten up on the unknown and get down on the cherries jubilee.




denverfred

I like your post...

Placebos is constitutive of human experience and has nothing to do with snake oil... Snake oil for me is crookery, thieving someone by selling him crap... Snake oil exist, but accusing many audio industries to sell snake oil is totally mistaken most of the times...

The reason is simple, ANY "generic" electronic design must be "specifically" embed, namely any electronic component must be used with controls methods in the mechanical dimension, electrical dimension and in the acoustical one to give his S.Q. potential...If not, the electronic component cannot gives his best...

What is the value of any review comparison of a dac in a bad controlled acoustic, even if the dac was measured by state of the art engineers?

I read most reviewers with a grain of salt.... When i started to understand that, i embarked in my systematic listenings experiments...

I will add something: a bunch of branded ready made tweaks is NOT and NEVER will be a method...

With a method of listening and a methodical investigation in this 3 embeddings dimensions, you dont buy a bunch of costly, ready made tweaks, instead you create step by step your own devices, perfectly adapted to your audio system, to your house, to your room, and to your listenings habits.... My point is that cost PEANUTS....

And it is this fact that almost nobody want to believe, even less verify with their own creativity...People wish that their money is sufficient to buy heaven.... It is not always the case because wether the best electronic component cost more money, or wether there is a lack in the controls embeddings of the costly products you already own whitout even knowing it...

Dont buy if not necessary, dont upgrade first; think and embed it all ....Listen between each steps... At the end enjoy a paradise created in part by your own hand ....It is more rewarding and less costly....

:)
Well put, Mr. Mahgister. Heading out to look for copper tape.
The copper must always be on the external side of the application....My best to you Sir....  :)
It’s not that difficult to figure out how not to be taken advantage of in this hobby. Just don’t spend thousands on cables. Listen to modest tube amps and electrostats. You’re good.