Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts


I use a pair of Dunlavy SC-3 speakers, known for their time/phase coherent crossover design.

When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.

Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.

Which brings me to the questions - 
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?

2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?

I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.

Thanks

Rooze


128x128rooze
@rooze asked, "How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?"

Briefly, a distributed multi-sub setup is quite flexible in positioning and phase. I have yet to have a customer fail to achieve a good integration with his mains. The relative uniformity of the low frequency sound field with a good distributed multisub system means that you aren’t "rolling the dice" when it comes to blending with your mains. 

The minor differences in arrival time at the listening position are a much smaller fraction of a wavelength than what the ear can resolve at low frequencies. How uniformly the low frequencies decay in-room is of greater audible consequence. Speakers + room = a minimum phase system at low frequencies, which means the time-domain response tracks the frequency response. Fix one and you have fixed the other.
@kenjit wrote: "There is no such thing as swarm."

A the risk of stating the obvious, the guy who manufacturers the Swarm begs to differ.

Duke
yes, I’m that guy
@gdnrbob
Thanks for your input. I’ve been tempted by the Vandy approach a few times over the years but I’ve never pulled the trigger on a pair. I think I’ve been put off a little by the need for placing an extra crossover in line. At least that’s how I remember them working. I’ll take a refresher on the Vandersteens tomorrow when I’m more awake!
Cheers
Rooze 
@jaytor great suggestions, thanks. I had a set of the Carver Amazing Platinums with their open baffle bass system and though blending with the ribbon was flawed, the bass could be made to sound very good. 

I’m familiar with the GT Audioworks subs having heard them at Cap Audio Fest a few weeks ago.
I’ll check into the Rythmik Servo approach and GR Audio’s implementation, if I’m not mistaken GR has a presence on Audiocircle so I’ll take a look.
Thanks

Rooze
@millercarbon

”Mains are Talon Khorus X. Not that it matters”
It matters to me, or I wouldn’t have asked.




@audiozenology
I have them crossed around 60hz but I’ve experimented quite a bit with different settings. My room size is part of the issue, 17x16 x 8.5 ‘
Point taken about bass arrays and the mic investment.

cheers

Rooze