How Science Got Sound Wrong


I don't believe I've posted this before or if it has been posted before but I found it quite interesting despite its technical aspect. I didn't post this for a digital vs analog discussion. We've beat that horse to death several times. I play 90% vinyl. But I still can enjoy my CD's.  

https://www.fairobserver.com/more/science/neil-young-vinyl-lp-records-digital-audio-science-news-wil...
artemus_5
mahgister,

I think you are trying to attach far too much complexity to this topic that is not a factor of the article.  It does not matter if there is 1, 2, or 1000 sensors, there is still just 2 signals, right and left, or perhaps more in a surround system. We only need to get those 2 signals right, no matter how many sensors there are.


A digitized and reconstructed analog signal with a given bandwidth, is no more compressed and decompressed than an analog signal that is stored and played back through a system of limited bandwidth. Arguable, modern digital systems "compress" far less, where "compress" is meant to mean throwing away data.

Yes, it really is as simple (or not so simple) as Shannon-Nyquist. Shannon-Nyquist even predicts that you can hear tones/signals that are lower in amplitude than the signal to noise ratio, both for analog and digital.  For all the talk about micro-timing, etc., there is no evidence that our auditory systems is anything but bandwidth limited. In fact, the experiments clearly show that these "micro-timing" "events", i.e. detecting time of arrival within <5 microseconds, is not improved by increased audio bandwidth. 


This statement below by Sofky is just lazy gobblygook.  Digital "variability" is neither lower nor higher, but digital implementations are lower in noise typically. If you don't like that, then simply add some noise back at playback. A reconstructed digital signal in the analog domain is absolutely as continuous as any other bandwidth limited signal. "Continuous natural laws"? ... huh?  There is nothing "unnatural" about the structure of digital "variability". That is well, a really weird statement, that I can only see someone who has a distorted understanding of bandwidth limited systems making. Hyperdimensional ... that is some hyperbole on his part. No, same dimension as the "real" world, just storing it in a different and more accurate fashion.



But variability in the digital world has a very different structure from the “noise” known to science. In one sense, digital variability is lower,having been specifically enriched to appear to our sensory systems as coherent 3D images or sounds rather than as random snow or hiss. In that sense, moment-to-moment digital inputs are designed to seem low noise and clean. But digital sources are hyperdimensional patterns, which (unlike real things) can change discontinuously, thereby violating the continuous natural laws a nervous system expects. The unnatural structure of digital variability can make it appear far more trustworthy and predictable than it actually is. (Sofky)

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Atdavid you are very intelligent, very knowledgeable in audio theory, and I will not be able to point to you something you cannot want to see or does not want to understand.... My limited knowledge even if I can read very well, cannot make the deaf ears and the blind see... I accept the verdict of ignorance applied to me because I am ignorant in audio engineering but I can read a text, and William Softky is not an ignorant goofy...

All my rant is there for you, not to retract your objection, that is probably if not a good one, at least an  interesting one, I dont know for sure, but my rant is there only to point to you the interesting view, the wider context, where the opinion of Softky comes from... But there is nothing more to say for me, you said it yourself...Shannon-Nyquist explain all that need to be explained in the neurology of the brain-body maps and mappings like in audio technology the rest is superfluous words of this Softky... After you had for sure reduce anything that had to be reduced to this only possibility by restricting the general problem that the thesis of Softky raises and declaring him ignorant, or at least in total error about a point in audio...


I thank you for you patience with me and your politeness.... I appreciate it, particularly here...I am truly yours even if we are not in the same wagon for that read...My best to you...
You are always polite Mahgister, so I would never think to be anything but in return :-)

I don't want to leave you with the impression I don't think that complex things happen in our brain/bodies we don't fully understand yet, and that is why I will never discount preferences, i.e. like a preference for vinyl because of the unique "presentation" of vinyl, and that could be things we think of as artifacts like higher noise, lower channel separation, even effects of equalization/de-equalization (which is real compression), etc.  Even today when most vinyl is cut from digital masters, many still prefer vinyl. That could just be the mastering, but if there is more to it, it would be good to understand what that is, so that we could simulate it for those that prefer it. When vinyl is cut from a digital master, any argument for technical superiority of vinyl disappears.  There are of course some who claim that you must have a full analog process for best sound, but even analog master tapes have their limitations, and perhaps it is those limitations we like.  These arguments get so consumed in what is "technically" better, that it is almost impossible to have a discussion about what is preferable.


Shannon-Nyquist explain all that need to be explained in the neurology of the brain-body maps and mappings like in audio technology the rest is superfluous words of this Softky... After you had for sure reduce anything that had to be reduced to this only possibility by restricting the general problem that the thesis of Softky raises and declaring him ignorant, or at least in total error about a point in audio...


atdavid
"Libellous statement. Either back in up with facts, or take it down. If you want to address something that I specifically wrote, go ahead, but try to act like an adult and stop the personal attacks. Also, don’t try to hide the fact you used a slander"

ha ha it looks like you got your law degree from Wikipedia or maybe Perry Mason also you are confused about the nature, basis, and definitions of libel and slander so good luck with your case!

It is not for you to limit, restrict, or discourage posters and contributors to this forum from sharing, expressing, or explaining they’re thoughts, observations, or opinions and regardless of you’re opinions or threats.  

One of Bob Carver’s salesmen also threatened me with legal action which is something American’s like to do when they are hurt and seek to have someone held accountable for they’re personal pain but of course he never followed up and for the same reason that you won’t/can’t follow-up on your threat which is just a hollow effort at intimidation, harassment, and bullying.

I know that my revealing the flaws, errors, and misunderstandings in you’re "scientific" reasoning has hurt you’re feelings and sense of self-esteem but these will likely recover and as I have already explained to you now that I realize how sensitive a person you are I will attempt to be more gentle with you in the future I do not want to hurt you in any way but of course I am free to expose you’re "malpractice" of science (I don’t know what else to call it!) whenever you commit one of you’re "arguments" based only on what you studied at Wikipedia University.